What Does It Mean to Be Human? with Marty Solomon
Alex Kocher (00:02.826)
Well, we have a special privilege today to welcome back a person who's been such a friend to our ministry. Marty, it feels in so many ways like you are our teacher because we not only have learned so much from you, but we reference you so much on the podcast. So it's just such a privilege that you would come to talk about your new book. Thank you for being here.
Marty Solomon (00:27.45)
Yeah, well thanks for those very, very kind words. I love to come back multiple times to an outlet because it represents a new budding friendship. And sometimes you get invited someplace once, and then sometimes you get invited back. And that's great. I love it.
Alex Kocher (00:40.605)
Hahaha
You are always invited back. I want to just give any listener who didn't hear our first interview with you several seasons ago the high points of who you are. You are a theologian, you're the president and director of discipleship for Impact Campus Ministries, and you're the creator and executive producer of the Baymah Podcast, which is where we learn so much from you.
and you and your wife Rebecca live in Cincinnati with your two children. And as we said, we talked to you in our first conversation a lot about your first book, Asking Better Questions of the Bible. And today we get to talk about your new book, The Gospel of Being Human. And I love the subtitle, What if Being Human Isn't the Problem but the Point? I wanted that to be in bigger letters on the cover.
Marty Solomon (01:30.994)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Alex Kocher (01:36.174)
So my first question for you is will you bridge the gap for us from your first book to to this second book like what made you leave the first book and want to write this book?
Marty Solomon (01:48.336)
Yeah, absolutely. There's actually a stream of consciousness here that will ultimately be three books. I don't know if that's a spoiler I'm supposed to tell people about. There is a third book that will come after this and there's a three part journey along the way. And it's really, I like to start at the end and actually walk backwards because the end, the next book is going to be a book on, on empathy, on relationships, on
Alex Kocher (01:54.734)
Alex Kocher (02:05.333)
huh.
Alex Kocher (02:10.179)
Mm.
Marty Solomon (02:11.248)
A bunch of things that I was learning a few years ago in trauma-informed training, like we had as a ministry, we were wanting to get better at being aware of what happens in church spaces and faith spaces with people that have experienced trauma and care about that better. And really what I was learning was just how to love people really well, how to be considerate, how to be compassionate. And so...
Alex Kocher (02:16.334)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (02:25.016)
Hmm.
Alex Kocher (02:29.74)
Right.
Marty Solomon (02:34.332)
I mean, my passion has always been, even since before my days in campus ministry 20 years ago, Jesus called us to be loving people. And we're just generally in our culture not good at that as Jesus followers. And that can be a harsh judgment, but that's often too true, I'll put it that way. And so there's a reason though, I grew up in these evangelical spaces, I grew up in fundamentalism. The reason why we struggle to be loving people is because our theology,
Alex Kocher (02:41.742)
Hmm.
Alex Kocher (02:46.146)
Yes.
Alex Kocher (02:51.586)
Mm-hmm.
Marty Solomon (03:03.516)
doesn't actually incentivize and facilitate us being loving people. And our theology is that way because of how we read the Bible. And in there lies your three-part journey. For evangelicals, we believe, I think rightly so. I was just challenged on this in my grad class last night, whether or not I'm.
Alex Kocher (03:08.425)
Marty Solomon (03:23.588)
apparently too traditional and fundamentalist still, but I believe the Bible is the place to start. I believe that's our revelation. I believe that's our authority. I believe it's inspired. believe it's... And so that means we need to read it right. And that's what the first book was all about. How can we read the Bible, better readings of the Bible? How can we ask better questions? And what that does is that sets us up to then be brave and curious enough to ask ourselves whether our...
Alex Kocher (03:47.49)
Right.
Marty Solomon (03:52.753)
our theology is consistent with that reading of scripture. Because we tend to fall into a, I'm gonna read the Bible according to my theology, rather than shape my theology according to the Bible. And so we wanted to be challenged by that. And so it goes Bible first, that was the first book. This is the theology book. It's about what does good theology look like? What does safe, healthy theology look like? What does theology look like that facilitates the thing that Jesus asked us to become?
Alex Kocher (03:56.056)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (04:04.77)
Yes.
Alex Kocher (04:19.544)
Mm-hmm.
Marty Solomon (04:19.814)
And then that next book in a year or two will be all about how to love people well coming out of a reshaped theology.
Alex Kocher (04:27.298)
Well, I really love that you, in some way, you start the conversation with a vertical relationship, then you go here, which is this part, this book is, I think, step that most of us skip, which is, I actually have to tend to what I believe and think and how much I can accept and dare I say love of myself before I can even move out into empathy, compassion, and true love of my neighbor.
Marty Solomon (04:35.197)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.
Marty Solomon (04:49.404)
Yep.
Marty Solomon (04:55.292)
Yeah, I would absolutely agree. And this is the corner we want to cut and you can't. And this is also the one that we're going to have the hardest time. I think I've already sensed that in the midst of putting the book together and having conversations. We...
Alex Kocher (05:01.155)
Mm-hmm.
Marty Solomon (05:13.692)
which really should tell us something. The thing we've been most passionately frustrated about is theology, not Bible reading. You would think it'd be Bible reading, but it's actually our theology. Don't make me question my theology. It makes us very uncomfortable and feel unsafe and feel like I don't know what's next and secure. so this is the hard, this is the hard, it's the one we skip and it's the hardest one to engage in, I think. It'll be the toughest conversation along the way.
Alex Kocher (05:19.404)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right.
Alex Kocher (05:30.882)
Right? Yeah.
Alex Kocher (05:39.937)
Right? And it makes me think that it's because we have a certain amount of pride about our own thinking. And as we know, even if you've done trauma-informed work, we want clear-cut black and white answers. They make us feel safe. And that's one of the things I think you push us towards a lot is you push us to mystery. And we are very...
Marty Solomon (05:48.7)
Yeah, yeah.
Marty Solomon (05:58.963)
We do, yeah.
Marty Solomon (06:05.799)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (06:08.276)
uncomfortable with mystery.
Marty Solomon (06:09.392)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. We prefer, talk about in the chapter about puzzles. Like we gravitate towards a puzzle because I can solve it and it's usually a little bit more concise and it's usually, it's meant to be solved. A puzzle has an end that you can get to and plant your feet in and a mystery is more open-ended. A mystery just kind of keeps going. Like the more you lean into it, the bigger and more colorful it gets. And.
Alex Kocher (06:20.44)
Hmm.
Alex Kocher (06:26.807)
Mm-hmm.
Marty Solomon (06:38.128)
depending on where we are looking for our certainty or our security, mystery does not get us there. But if we learn how to maybe ask better questions of our theology and our Bibles, we may actually find it's really liberating actually.
Alex Kocher (06:42.786)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (06:53.112)
I think you're right. think you're helping me get there. So one of the challenges right out of the gate in the book is the idea that we humans are not, that our story doesn't start with brokenness, that it really starts with the loved. And I just have to tell you a little story.
Marty Solomon (06:56.901)
It's hard. Yeah, yeah, it's hard. a journey I've been on myself. So absolutely.
Marty Solomon (07:14.503)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (07:20.556)
Because immediately when I read the jacket of the book, I thought of this interaction with my best friend 20, 25 years ago. She comes, we're all hanging out together and she said, I just heard this question. I think the question came from Dan Allender. When did you have and when did you lose your sense of the beloved? And I immediately struck back. We're not the beloved. Jesus is the beloved.
Marty Solomon (07:24.635)
Yep.
Marty Solomon (07:41.768)
Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Alex Kocher (07:48.759)
It's not us, we only can even claim that because of him. And all these years, my answer has bothered me. And I think you take it on right from the beginning of the book.
Marty Solomon (07:53.426)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Marty Solomon (08:02.629)
Yeah. Yep, yeah. that was the theologically right answer you gave her in the world that shaped me and raised me. I even tell, in some of the interviews I've been sharing this, I'll see your story and I'll raise you one. I remember being in a church service and there was a pastor preaching and he was telling the story of his daughter and she worked at a local bank and.
Alex Kocher (08:18.432)
Right?
Marty Solomon (08:28.481)
And there was this guy that had been coming by harassing her. And so they actually had to get a restraining order. He wasn't allowed to come by the bank anymore. And they went on some family trip some hour, hour two away and they were at a department store. And she comes running up to him. She says, Dad, he's here. He says, who's here? The guy from the bank. And so he said, he was coming around the corner of the aisle. And as he came around the corner of the aisle, he said, I took my daughter and I put her behind me so that...
so that when he looked down the aisle, he couldn't see my daughter, all he could see was me. And then the preacher said, and that's what Jesus does when God comes looking for you. And I remember, and everybody was like, amen, hallelujah. And I was like, my goodness, we just equated one of the members of the Godhead to a predator who has a restraining order, but Jesus is the nice guy. And that other line of evangelical thinking that says,
Alex Kocher (08:58.402)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (09:06.456)
Yeah.
Marty Solomon (09:23.845)
You know, luckily when you're in Christ, when God looks at you, he doesn't see you. What he sees is Jesus. Like Jesus tricks him somehow. God doesn't actually see you, he sees Christ. And I remember just thinking, man, when God looks at you, he sees you. All of you, a broken you, a sinful you, a rebel you, but a you that he loves very much. Just like I would look at any of my kids. And it is, it is. We have often been handed a, you can't be the beloved.
Alex Kocher (09:29.804)
Yes.
Alex Kocher (09:40.578)
Yeah, yeah.
Marty Solomon (09:53.734)
You are not the beloved. Luckily Jesus, the only beloved. And I just don't think it's consistent with the Bible. That's just why we started the first book, but I just don't think it's consistent with what the Bible's trying to show us and insist on with almost a turn of every page of the scripture from Old to New Testament.
Alex Kocher (10:10.72)
Yeah, and it just got me thinking Marty, like why do you think we do not want to believe we're beloved? Why would we even want to resist that? But I find myself in counseling, this is why this book is so meaningful to me, I find myself in counseling.
Marty Solomon (10:24.251)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (10:32.398)
taking people back to the Mago day so often saying, yeah, yeah, this got twisted in you. Yeah, sure, there's probably sinfulness mixed into this, but there's also something really good and beautiful in this desire. There's something God given, God celebrated in what you want and what you're longing for here.
Marty Solomon (10:35.398)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yes.
Alex Kocher (10:51.864)
People resist me on that more. I do more tug of war on that. And I still haven't quite been able to put words to why we don't want to believe it. It's the best news there is.
Marty Solomon (10:55.633)
Yeah.
Marty Solomon (11:03.641)
Yeah, it is. And it is the gospel. It's the gospel in its most primitive form. It's the pre-Jesus cross, most articulate, most embodied, most incarnate version of the gospel. But it's the most primitive expression of the gospel at the beginning of the story. And I think the reason why we don't is like the most primitive, this is the most primitive pagan expression of religion. And what I mean by that is it is what is most default in us. We assume that gods are angry.
Alex Kocher (11:08.023)
Right?
Alex Kocher (11:28.718)
you
Marty Solomon (11:32.87)
We always have from the earliest days of polytheism, it is our knee-jerk reaction to assume that the world is broken because the gods are angry. And what we argue about is why the gods are angry. But that wasn't actually the Jewish story, not as they understood it. This God loved creation. And yes, we had distorted it. And yes, that matters. And yes, that's destructive. And it's real. There are real consequences to that.
Alex Kocher (11:32.919)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (11:49.026)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (11:55.416)
Mm-hmm.
Marty Solomon (12:01.947)
But God actually loved this creation that he made good and believes that it can be restored. And that whole Jewish idea of Tikkun Olam, repairing the world. And I love the expression you just used of something got twisted. Because the goal would be if you untwisted it, it would get to its most true self. And its most true self is this good, Imago Dei, image-bearer, representative reflection of God in the world.
Alex Kocher (12:07.875)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (12:17.186)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (12:21.774)
All right.
Marty Solomon (12:31.855)
The twisting is very real. We can't deny the twisting of it. But underneath that is its most real real. And the most real is not the sin part of us, but the God, like how he originally intended us to be. That's what lies at the base of all of
Alex Kocher (12:33.774)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (12:41.836)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (12:47.118)
So the Sunday school kid in me has to ask, what about Jeremiah 17, 9? The heart is deceitful. Above all, we are desperately wicked.
Marty Solomon (12:49.861)
Yep. Yep.
Marty Solomon (12:54.971)
Sure.
Marty Solomon (13:00.015)
Yeah, yeah, no, I think there's a no, I think there the Bible is always trying to teach us how the complexities of the human experience we would it would be great if the Bible was like just it was always just clean. But the fact of the matter is our hearts can be dangerous. Our there is a part of us, especially when we have been twisted, when our fear and our insecurity.
Alex Kocher (13:22.766)
Mm-hmm.
Marty Solomon (13:29.933)
Absolutely. I think it's not where we started, it's where we've ended up. I think it's important to remind ourselves that building theologies out of prophetic utterances is probably not our best theological impulse or practice. Or when we go to the psalmist and sin, my mother conceived me and we're like, see? And yet...
Alex Kocher (13:35.534)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (13:45.858)
Good word.
Marty Solomon (13:55.292)
The same psalmist writes another psalm that says, am fearfully and wonderfully made. So which one is it? And the Bible's always going yes to this and yes to this, because both of those are true, which means I have to go back and go, okay, so where did the story start? And the story didn't start in Genesis three, it started in Genesis one. But the danger of Genesis three is very real. It's very, very real. I remember learning not very long ago that in Jewish theology, they don't have the concept of a fall.
Alex Kocher (13:59.919)
No, no, no, no, no.
Alex Kocher (14:09.101)
Right.
Marty Solomon (14:26.277)
Like that's not in Judeo theology. That's an Augustinian Christian Augustinian construct. And it's not necessarily wrong, but the Jewish world doesn't read the story of Adam and Eve as this is how sin entered the world and what happened. They read the story of Adam and Eve as this is why we sin any day. It's why we sinned back then. It's why I still sin. So why do we sin? That's a whole different story than what happened.
Alex Kocher (14:52.482)
Yes.
Marty Solomon (14:54.277)
And those are just, again, asking better questions of the Bible leads me to go, so there's a real me underneath this that is very fearful and insecure. And that makes me do really destructive, dangerous things. We call that sin. But it's different than a, well, something happened back then and now you're just hopeless, hopelessly sinful. It's just something we ought to be curious about in the spirit of the book.
Alex Kocher (15:14.968)
Right.
Alex Kocher (15:20.044)
Yeah, and yeah, I read that paragraph many times that the Jewish theology has no concept of the fall and really, really wrestled because I teach the grand narrative a lot. And so I teach creation, fall redemption, restoration. And I thought, wow.
Marty Solomon (15:32.965)
Yeah, yep. Yep. Yep.
Alex Kocher (15:39.245)
Should that be removed as one of the eras? You incorporated it when you talk about it. Dan Allender uses a little bit like your shalom, shalom shattered. Uh-huh. Shalom shattered.
Marty Solomon (15:45.849)
Yep. Yep.
Marty Solomon (15:52.289)
sure. that's good. Dan, come on, Dan. That's so good. Why didn't I think of that?
Alex Kocher (16:00.303)
I can't remember his third one, and then Shalom Restored. So he definitely is leaning into the idea of, I think a more Jewish idea of creation. But when you say it's our fears and insecurities that cause us to sin, that causes us to have to do, I think, a different kind of self-examination.
Marty Solomon (16:03.504)
Sure. Yep.
Marty Solomon (16:10.938)
Yeah. Yeah.
Marty Solomon (16:26.682)
Yeah, yeah.
Alex Kocher (16:27.926)
And maybe we're back again to why do we want to believe some of the things we believe because maybe we feel safer. Because that does not feel safe to think about what are my fears and insecurities versus, I just have this in nature. It's deeply rooted in me and it's going to show. Now I actually have to develop with the spirit some awareness of what my heart is doing.
Marty Solomon (16:41.648)
Yeah. yeah.
Yeah.
Marty Solomon (16:51.3)
Yeah, absolutely. That's a great, nobody has made that point yet. And that is a great point. It's actually easier to deflect and say, well, I'm just a byproduct of, which is kind of the theme behind the book. We've been told that being a human is bad news. Well, I'm only human. And we always use the phrase human to speak of everything that's wrong with us or limited about us. But there's another part of being human that is the, and so that does, it begs a question and it begs the work. And that work is the thing that,
I would assume, I'm not a counselor, I would assume this is kind what you live in every day.
Alex Kocher (17:26.03)
Well, I was going to say, feel like am I doing too much of a commercial for counseling? Yes, I am.
Marty Solomon (17:28.71)
No, it's exactly the work that you guys do. It's like you're calling us to do the liberating work. If we don't do this work, there's no payoff at the end. We just kind of keep running, stepping around, dodging. I know this from my own time in counseling and therapy, but the hard work is also the liberating work. The hard work is where I grow. The hard work is where I'm transformed, which on some level is a part of that salvation that we often talk about, that is, it happened and is happening.
in our lives. So, it is uncomfortable, but so good and so worth it, which is why curiosity is such a value.
Alex Kocher (18:03.939)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (18:07.438)
I love that you return to curiosity again and again. And because I talk a lot in my counseling about staying in curiosity and out of judgment. And I think it's almost the theme of your book. How do we stay out of judgment even towards our own selves and stay curious? But it also is pushing us to curiosity about God. And I'm going to tell you, I got the copy of the book with only a few days to prepare. I thought I'm about to speed read this thing, which
Marty Solomon (18:16.474)
Yeah. Yep.
Marty Solomon (18:22.096)
Yep.
Marty Solomon (18:33.488)
Yep.
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (18:37.07)
I ended up not wanting to do and couldn't do because I just got sucked in. But I also didn't expect to find tears in my eyes so often. And the first time that happened was when you were talking about Romans 6 23, the wages of sin is death. And you said, but if you understand that verse is a warning that if you do a bad thing, God will strike you down and send you to hell. Hear me. The employer.
Marty Solomon (18:40.485)
Yeah.
Marty Solomon (18:46.694)
Hmm.
Alex Kocher (19:05.972)
It made me cry now. The employer paying the wages in this metaphor is not God. It's sin. That's not how I learned it in Sunday school. And it goes to your story of this big, angry, unsafe God. And it takes that down. I mean, it takes it by the throat and says, no, this is not who he is.
Marty Solomon (19:11.802)
Yeah, yeah.
Marty Solomon (19:17.626)
Yeah. Yeah.
Marty Solomon (19:26.232)
Yes, correct.
Marty Solomon (19:33.766)
Correct. Yep. Absolutely. Which if I open myself up to that as I read my scriptures, that's not even a stretch to me anymore. That's just the God I keep reading about all the time. Yeah.
Alex Kocher (19:48.943)
I love that. It does make me excited to replay all the Old Testament. And see, like the other thing you say a lot is that God's wrath and His love are not equal. We get the ratio that wrath to love is three to 1000. He is so much more loving to the thousandth generation than He is wrathful.
Marty Solomon (19:56.837)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Marty Solomon (20:06.245)
Yeah.
Marty Solomon (20:11.12)
Yep.
Alex Kocher (20:18.447)
And that's not the equation that I live by.
Marty Solomon (20:20.664)
Yeah, no, no, we were all handed this perfect balance. God is equal parts love and justice or love and wrath or love and holiness or however we defined it, but equal parts, which means he has to hold this imperfect tension, which the impulses is a good one. I understand what we're doing there. And I love making the point in the book. It's not a thousand to zero. It is a thousand to three, but it's a thousand to three. And the, the
Alex Kocher (20:40.757)
Right.
Marty Solomon (20:46.274)
well overwhelming defining characteristic of God as he defines himself because it was himself talking to Moses that gave us that declaration and that definition and that's how he wants us to see him as yeah yeah it's not a thousand to zero it's not that you're never gonna ever have to pay any punishment or consequences but this is not this is you don't have to live in like constant like what's God gonna do I'm a thousand to three if you want to come try to follow me seek me with all your heart you're gonna find me
Alex Kocher (21:10.583)
Right.
Marty Solomon (21:16.166)
You're gonna find me, because I'm not bipolar. I don't wanna use a negative example. I'm not this unsafe god that you don't know. I'm not gonna go into these manic episodes of divine. That's just not who I'm gonna be. Yep.
Alex Kocher (21:29.954)
Right.
And that's really the only context where we can do what we just talked about, right? Like that's the only context is this God who loves us, who sees us, not just because of Jesus, us, loves us, loves us so much more than he...
Marty Solomon (21:38.095)
Yes.
Marty Solomon (21:44.731)
Yes.
Alex Kocher (21:49.569)
feels wrathful towards us, then that's a safe god where I can look at my fears and insecurities and I can begin to understand why I would turn from him out of fear and not trust him and not trust his story. Like that then all these things start to make sense. It's like I really can't believe one without the other.
I can't believe that I might be beloved, but he's not loving. I can't believe that he's unsafe and be willing to do this examination. Like all these things began to dovetail together and make me want to, I don't know, it's almost, it's fun to be 54 years old, to really feel like I've walked with the Lord for, you know, what? the better, almost five decades and then think,
Marty Solomon (22:23.066)
Yeah.
Marty Solomon (22:31.462)
Ha ha ha.
Alex Kocher (22:40.824)
gosh, there's more to him to know, there's more of him to experience. It's really fun and it is why I love your books.
Marty Solomon (22:44.804)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, good. I'm glad that can be helpful.
Alex Kocher (22:50.472)
So I do want to ask you because one of the other places that really slowed me down was the Romans Road redone. Because if you grew up in Sunday school, this, I I could not remember at what age I learned the Romans Road, but I would bet you it was before I turned 10. I mean, I bet you I'm seven, eight years old. And you take it on and you say, okay, there's some, there's some
Marty Solomon (22:59.951)
Yeah.
Marty Solomon (23:11.566)
Yep. Yep.
Alex Kocher (23:20.184)
fallacies that there are good or there are some problems with the way that we've interpreted this and they really matter. Can you walk us through it a little bit?
Marty Solomon (23:22.595)
huh. Yep. Yep.
Marty Solomon (23:29.894)
Yeah, yeah, and I want to be you. I think fallacies is the right word, especially as I as I wrote it. I want to be careful how much I I don't I don't want to throw too many stones here. I'm I'm barking up an awful lot of tree here by by taking on the Romans road. But but I'm with you. It's what I was taught very early. It was reinforced in my Bible training at an undergraduate level. This is the definition of modern era post enlightenment, particularly in our
Alex Kocher (23:52.738)
Mm-hmm.
Marty Solomon (23:58.98)
in our modern era, the way we articulate the gospel, especially in the 20th century. So if there is something to question, if it does need to be examined, it is super important. But yeah, we all learned. And I'm not nearly as good with the actual Romans Road references off the top of my head as I used to be. I had to pass like three tests where I could just like.
Alex Kocher (24:20.566)
Right?
Marty Solomon (24:21.411)
boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom,
Alex Kocher (24:28.535)
Right.
Alex Kocher (24:41.09)
Mm-hmm.
Marty Solomon (24:49.881)
So immediately I already have things that I've kind of worked in the book to set us up for. Like, is it equal balance? Is it equal love and justice? Like is God's love held captive by his need to, he has to punish. So we look at things like, what about the freedom of God? Like this whole idea that God has to. He has to kill something because sin happened. And I challenge that idea just based on pure theology of God's sovereignty and God's freedom.
Like who shows up and arrests God if he decides he doesn't have to do this? And we talk about God needing to be true to his character. Is that his character? it went a thousand to three? What is God's character? But then we have the whole I'm separated from God, which again, we've got a verse out of Isaiah. We love to quote ad nauseam. Is that Paul references it? The question is why? Why does Paul reference that in the book of Romans?
Alex Kocher (25:22.882)
Right?
Alex Kocher (25:46.594)
Mm-hmm.
Marty Solomon (25:47.416)
Are we separated from God or is the whole Bible a story of God continuing to insist that he's going to show up? Like he's going to build this tabernacle right in the middle of his sinful people. He's going to create ways for us to approach him. the Bible this? So immediately right off the bat, I'm like questioning all these assumptions which set the stage and essentially set the, it creates the puzzle. It's the theological puzzle. Once I've set the puzzle, but what if I set the puzzle incorrectly? Like what if
Alex Kocher (25:52.142)
to.
Alex Kocher (26:11.288)
Right?
than I can. Right?
Marty Solomon (26:17.465)
What if that actually, what if all those pieces aren't true and that's not the puzzle I'm trying to solve? Well, the whole conversation would change. The whole conversation would change. And so yeah, we just kind of go through all those assumptions. God's equal parts love and wrath. I'm separated from God. Because I sin, something has to die. And every assumption we just go, wait, is that? Is that a safe assumption? And by saying that, Alex, it's important that I say this. I'm not saying that there's no truth.
Alex Kocher (26:43.66)
Yes.
Marty Solomon (26:45.709)
in any of those theological statements or we should chuck out the whole Roman's road, but we've really built something that is solid and rigid that if it's not, if there's more to it, that's important. I need to probably back up and pull it apart and let it breathe a little and see if there are maybe better ways to phrase it, to frame it, to put it back together. Like let's not just deconstruct, let's also reconstruct. But if I put this in a way that's kind of somewhat harmful,
Alex Kocher (26:53.966)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (27:06.028)
Yes.
Marty Solomon (27:15.225)
I wanna pull those things apart. And then we did, we kinda hinted at atonement theory, which I wasn't gonna get into in the book, is atonement substitutionary? Or is atonement multi-layered? Is it multifaceted? Have we reduced it? Is the Roman's road overly reductionistic? Because if it is, we should pay attention to that.
Alex Kocher (27:31.97)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (27:40.343)
Right.
Marty Solomon (27:41.39)
And I don't know if I offer like answers to every single one of these questions. I just kind of hint at, don't know if this is the best model. And then you're right. At the very end, you've already referenced that we try to step back and say, maybe there's a better way to frame this of shalom. Now I can't even remember what I said, because the Dan Allenders is so much better. Shalom shattered like this consummation of wholeness. That's what God's up to. So yeah, absolutely.
Alex Kocher (27:49.506)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (28:08.62)
Because Marty, when I read your books, sometimes I feel I get lost, right? Because it does create so many questions. But I do return to this idea, and I want to know if it's a wrong idea. The gospel is... Or maybe I say, I've always been told the gospel should be something that we can explain to children.
Marty Solomon (28:15.855)
Mm-hmm.
Marty Solomon (28:37.091)
Yeah, sure. Absolutely.
Alex Kocher (28:39.016)
So I'm trusting you that I'm going to wrestle with things like you breaking up my Roman's road and I'm going to still be able to get to the other side and be able to share the gospel with a child in a way that feels theologically honest. But I have to admit that Ed Welch used to say something.
Marty Solomon (28:41.038)
Yeah.
Marty Solomon (28:46.469)
Yeah, yeah.
Marty Solomon (28:50.775)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Marty Solomon (28:57.977)
Yeah, that's beautiful.
Alex Kocher (29:05.288)
He used to say, I wouldn't give anything for the simple that has moved through the complexity. He said, but most often what we want to do is we want to stay in the simplistic that won't move through complexity to get back to the simple. And I just want to say for readers, if you're reading Marty's books, you are going to leave the simplistic and you are going to wade into a lot of complexity.
Marty Solomon (29:13.667)
Yeah, sure. Absolutely.
Marty Solomon (29:20.451)
Yeah, right. Yep. Yep.
Marty Solomon (29:30.435)
Yeah, sure.
Alex Kocher (29:35.235)
But Marty's saying, and I think if we can trust the story and trust the God who loves us, we will get back to a simple, not in the sense that all our questions are gone, but we will be able to share the gospel with a child. We will be able to put our faith into words that is meaningful and theologically holds integrity.
Marty Solomon (29:37.156)
Yeah.
Marty Solomon (29:41.155)
Yep, yep, yep.
Marty Solomon (29:53.05)
Yeah.
Marty Solomon (29:58.458)
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So let me go back to where you just started. Cause I think it's brilliant that the gospel, whatever the gospel is should be able to be communicated to a child. And even though we do, we do communicate penal substitutionary atonement to five year olds. think anybody that's ever had any training in childhood development would tell you psychologically, they are not at all able to process substitutionary atonement.
Alex Kocher (30:04.13)
Okay.
Alex Kocher (30:14.379)
You
Marty Solomon (30:26.881)
why Jesus would have to die on a cross for me, because as a five-year-old, I'm so bad that Jesus had, like they can, we're not even close. Like we're not even close, whatever that gospel is. But we try to teach it to kids. And I don't wanna say we do harm. I'm also not gonna say we're not doing harm. So it's gotta be simpler than that. And I know I'm gonna regret this. So hopefully nobody listens to our interview today.
Alex Kocher (30:45.859)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (30:52.33)
I'm saying that!
Marty Solomon (30:54.309)
I'm just kidding. I hope lots of people listen, but I know I'll probably regret saying this. The gospel is something I could tell a five-year-old, and that is that God loves you no matter what. And I don't mean that at all in a simplistic way. I mean that in a deeply grounded. That's what we mean when we say trust the story. God made a good creation when he looks at you. He doesn't pull back. He doesn't revile. He's not ashamed of you.
Even after you're broken and you screw up, God still loves you. Now, as we get older, that gospel will have layers and it will grow in complexity as we wrestle with. Okay, but what about? But that really, and I know we don't like it because it's harder to build empires and build big church buildings and convince people to give a lot of money to different, it's so much easier to control people.
Alex Kocher (31:24.93)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (31:32.076)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (31:49.728)
yes.
Marty Solomon (31:49.965)
and to build on the shoulders of fear, always has been, always will be. Yeah, and it's that pagan impulse. What did the pagans do? The gods are angry. I have to offer a sacrifice. So this whole Romans Road thing leads us down a very old pagan path. And this Jewish god was trying to say, I'll meet you where you're at. I'll use some of this language you're familiar with.
Alex Kocher (31:54.196)
And guilt, yeah.
Alex Kocher (32:08.713)
Mm-hmm.
Marty Solomon (32:19.055)
But the news is better than that. Like the news is that my forgiveness is unending and that my grace, however much sin abounds, grace abounds all the more. And however bad Adam was, couldn't hold a candle to who Jesus was. So the second, the first Adam was just trumped immediately by the second Adam. I mean, all of these things that scripture, but we've built a system to kind of like,
Alex Kocher (32:31.79)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (32:37.398)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (32:43.476)
Mm-hmm.
Marty Solomon (32:49.637)
keep us going through the religious cattle guards, like keep us showing up so that we do the things, we go through the motions, that we are a part of the stuff and I can count on it and rely on it. And not because we're evil, because we're trying to put something solid around us that we can lean on, but over time. But I really do think the gospel is. I could tell my five-year-old the gospel, absolutely. Yeah, yeah.
Alex Kocher (33:05.677)
Yes.
Alex Kocher (33:14.528)
Mm-hmm. Reminds me of one more story. And then we'll probably have to wrap up. I'm sitting in my office. I told this on the podcast before. I'm sitting in my office with my pastor. We're planning our doors open and his daughter, unbeknownst to him, playing out on the playground and she comes skipping in with her friend and they go to the bathroom, which is right next door to our office. Now we both, my pastor and I know
his daughter and her friend, we've known them both literates since the day they were born, but she comes running back from the bathroom and she comes into the office first and she goes, daddy, here's Libby. And then Libby comes running around the corner and she's grinning from ear to ear like we've never met her before, And I tell that story a lot because to me it's become this very visual theology of Jesus who loves us.
Marty Solomon (34:01.026)
Yeah, yeah.
Marty Solomon (34:09.506)
Yeah. Yep. Yep.
Alex Kocher (34:12.92)
going to a father who loves us and presenting us and saying, here's Alex, here's Marty, right? Like it's this end of Jude benediction excitement and love and delight that overflows from the father with the father and the son over us. Like I cling to that story in times when I am just.
Marty Solomon (34:19.554)
Yep. Yep.
Marty Solomon (34:27.331)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (34:38.37)
beating myself up. I'll cling to that story when this interview is over and I think of everything I said wrong because I want to remember this beautiful relationship between the Father and the Son and not to downplay the importance of what Jesus did on the cross but to be able to raise our view of how much God loves us. Like I don't want anybody to think that we're saying, well, if God's not as wrathful as I thought, then Jesus's work is not as important. No.
Marty Solomon (34:39.736)
Yeah.
Marty Solomon (34:49.463)
Yeah.
Marty Solomon (35:05.388)
Right, exactly not, yep.
Alex Kocher (35:08.192)
No, we want Jesus to be every bit as big, if not bigger, but that this love that exists in the Godhead and not just in the person of Jesus.
Marty Solomon (35:15.94)
Yep. Oh yeah, absolutely. Like love using the image of, and I know not everybody has parents, so I try not to use the metaphor all the time, but for all of us that, at least we were all kids at some point, and for those of us that have been parents, like I even think about just this morning, like my kids went to school this morning, and like my best moments, I know what my best moments were, and they were moments of like love.
Alex Kocher (35:27.544)
Right?
Marty Solomon (35:39.309)
and value and encouragement. And the moments I regret from this morning are me like barking about dirty dishes and like just, And so wait a minute. So I think back on me as a parent and I know inherently we all do. That was the good stuff. That was the stuff that is the sin part of me. So why do we think God's backwards? If God's the perfect example of fatherly love, then he got
Alex Kocher (35:59.407)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (36:03.458)
All right.
Marty Solomon (36:08.974)
There was nothing that he looks at and goes, I wish I wouldn't have done that. It's all the good stuff. Like it's all the love. It's all the parental acceptance and direction and all the things that we know we're like, that's good parenting right there. Well, that's just good God all the time. and it doesn't mean I won't discipline. It doesn't mean that I don't have to show up and, it's, I know what good, good, good dad and bad dad looks like. And I feel like my theology tells me that it's bad dad, bad dad, God.
Alex Kocher (36:13.806)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (36:23.01)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Marty Solomon (36:38.944)
And it can't be, it has to be good dad God all the time, perfectly. So I'm totally with you. I think it's a beautiful reflection.
Alex Kocher (36:39.337)
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (36:48.994)
I'm really glad at the end of the book you say the D word deconstruction because I think it's gotten such a bad rap and I think you just are giving us so much permission. I think you're giving permission to the people.
Marty Solomon (36:53.526)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (37:03.818)
like me who have been in Sunday school their whole life and have wrestle begun to wrestle into adulthood with some of these things we believed. And I think you're giving permission to the person who's afraid to wrestle to invite them into it. And I love that you continue to remind us like we're not going to deconstruction to have a pile of rubble.
Marty Solomon (37:06.798)
Yeah.
Marty Solomon (37:15.534)
Yep. Yep.
Marty Solomon (37:25.582)
Yeah, absolutely. Yep.
Alex Kocher (37:27.886)
We're doing deconstruction to be able to build, I would say build a better foundation, have something that we construct, which is kind of what I'm realizing now in my 50s is a continual process. It's not a one and done thing.
Marty Solomon (37:35.907)
Yeah.
Marty Solomon (37:42.861)
Yep. Yeah, absolutely. I remember when I was, that was the last day I was writing my book and we went on this little trip to that cathedral I talk about and it serves as the bookends of the book. And it just became this beautiful metaphor of this is a gorgeous building. Like nobody wants to see this and yet we're got in order to preserve it, we're going to have to literally take it apart. call that we're going to deconstruct it, but because we're saving the building, we're going to be putting it back together.
Alex Kocher (38:06.637)
Right?
Marty Solomon (38:11.076)
But we've got to take it apart so that we can save it, we can fix some things, we can refurbish, we can do the stuff we need to do, reinforce. And it was just a beautiful picture for me of what we've got to do with our faith.
Alex Kocher (38:23.766)
Yeah, and I think it takes so much of the shame out of it when people, there is a shame around asking questions in Christianity, I think, and it takes so much of the shame out of it because again, it's already scary enough to be asking the questions, but then to be shamed for asking the questions will just completely shut us down.
Marty Solomon (38:29.922)
Yeah. Yep.
Marty Solomon (38:40.536)
Yes, you better believe it. Yep, yep.
Alex Kocher (38:45.394)
So the other part of this that I want to just mention is that when this, we kind of get this better view of who we are, how loved we are, this bigger view of God's love for us, you invite us into something really beautiful, which is partnership with God.
And I don't even think we could even understand being truly invited to partner with God if we don't understand the first two. So I love that you brought us into the idea, but I would just love for you to talk a little bit about what partnership with God means to you, mainly because again, as I teach the grand narrative, I think it's a very under-emphasized part of my own teaching.
Marty Solomon (39:32.598)
Yeah, yeah, a lot of people hate the word because they feel like it makes us too equal with God. And I'm not talking about an equal partnership of equal mutuality, but an invitation from God. Again, like I would do my children. Like last interview I just did, I gave a picture of like, you know, telling your kid whatever I'm doing, like get in here and get messy.
Alex Kocher (39:37.879)
Yeah.
Marty Solomon (39:55.096)
And I know they're gonna screw it up, whatever it is that I'm doing, I know they're gonna put my screwdriver in the wrong spot, and they're gonna, it's gonna make a mess. But I want them to get in here, because I want them to be involved, because I want them for all kinds of reasons. And I feel like God does that with his partnership. I'm putting the world back together. You're kind of the one that made this mess. So get in here and help me put it up, help me clean it up, help me put it back together. And again, that's a very Jewish idea, to kun olam, the repair of the world.
Alex Kocher (39:57.996)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (40:05.74)
Mm-hmm.
Marty Solomon (40:23.396)
We're not sitting back watching God put the world back together. And there's a quote in the Talmud, which isn't the Bible, but the Talmud and Perkyavot says, you know, we're not obligated to finish the task. We're also not free to abandon it. And so there is this part that God is saying, I need you to play your part. I need you to be your link in the chain of how we put this world back together. Ultimately, the job is mine. Ultimately, the power that gets it done is mine. But I'm asking you to help.
Alex Kocher (40:37.751)
Hmm.
Marty Solomon (40:52.772)
and I'm inviting you to be a part. And lots of people have said one of their favorite words is that I use as partnership. And I got it from my teacher. I remember Ray saying.
talking about Pharaoh and Moses and God sent Moses to Pharaoh because God was looking for partners and he spun around and he said, and God still is. And I just went, ooh, that's a line. So I stole that forever. God is looking for partners. He's still looking for partners. Always has been and always, as far as I'm aware, will be. So let's say yes to that.
Alex Kocher (41:15.951)
Thank
Alex Kocher (41:25.206)
I wish we could add, don't tell anybody in my church I said this, but I wish we could add to the Westminster Confession, what is the chief end of man. I love glorify God, I love enjoy him forever, but I wish we could add this partnership word.
Marty Solomon (41:29.623)
Okay, good.
Marty Solomon (41:40.566)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. To glorify God and partner with him in the act of redemption. Sure, absolutely. We'll just put it in brackets and we won't tell anybody.
Alex Kocher (41:45.807)
Yeah.
Yeah, we won't tell, don't tell anybody. But because so many people, we're back to my, you know, I'm always thinking through the grid of counseling, but so many people, I mean, why am I here? Why'd God leave me here? Why? I mean, when He saved me, why didn't He just take me home? He doesn't need me to save people. mean, again, you can hear our theology of God doesn't need me, which I understand to say it, I know that's true.
Marty Solomon (42:06.532)
Yeah.
Marty Solomon (42:12.516)
Yep. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep.
Alex Kocher (42:18.619)
But the idea that he wants us to be his partners. Yeah, it's fun.
Marty Solomon (42:21.634)
Yep. Yep. Yeah. Yeah.
Alex Kocher (42:28.524)
That's what, if I could say anything to our listeners, this is what I would invite them into. And we're back to Dan Allender's words. He invites us into curiosity. He invites us into playfulness. And I wish we could get this idea that when we come to the scriptures and ask questions, that there is an element of play happening.
Marty Solomon (42:33.166)
Yeah.
Marty Solomon (42:40.996)
Hmm.
Marty Solomon (42:49.668)
Yeah. Yep.
Alex Kocher (42:50.574)
with the Holy Spirit, with this Word, with God Himself. But I think almost even when I say it, I'm like, I allowed to say this? Because I can feel the Sunday School part of me thinking, you don't play with God's Word.
Marty Solomon (42:59.031)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, yep. Yeah, and how comfortable do you have to be with God's presence to play? You've gotta know that like, Dad loves me and I'm fine. I'm safe, he's here, and I'm not in trouble, and I'm truly loved. And so what else would anybody do in a childlike faith? Not a childish faith, but a childlike faith, then play. Didn't find a spiritual playfulness, absolutely.
Alex Kocher (43:09.218)
to play.
Alex Kocher (43:27.374)
Well, you are pushing us towards that, Marty, even just with the podcast that you do with this book, you're pushing us towards this playfulness. Yes, in the process, we are going to feel afraid that things are going to be coming down, but kids do that when they play. I tell people all the time, I don't want to offend you when I say this, but when you're learning new things, you're going to be like a toddler and toddlers kind of wreck things.
Marty Solomon (43:41.112)
Yeah. Yeah, that's right. That's right.
Marty Solomon (43:53.59)
Yeah, that's right. That's right.
Alex Kocher (43:56.449)
And so we do wreck some things even when we come to God's Word and are trying to apply new questions to it. But I think you've done such a great job of encouraging us to keep coming back to the text, that we can find the answers in the text. And you have such a high view of scripture. I don't want anybody to think when we say play that it diminishes your view of scripture.
Marty Solomon (44:08.429)
Yeah.
Marty Solomon (44:16.415)
Yeah, no. Yeah, not at all. Not at all. Yeah, it's scripture that taught me how to think like this. It's scripture that taught me to like, okay, but wait a minute, go further than that. That's not good enough. Like that high view of scripture isn't high enough. Keep pressing. Yeah.
Alex Kocher (44:28.813)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, it's beautiful. Is there anything else you want to say about the book, Marty, that I... We've gone where I want You let me totally go where I want to go.
Marty Solomon (44:43.787)
Yeah, no, we've had a great conversation. I don't think there's anything, we've covered the good stuff. I don't suspect that everything I say in the book has found its appropriate end or there's more to the conversation. There'll be bits and pieces. People say eat the fish, spit out the bones, okay. Like yes, do all that. I just want us to not be afraid to really investigate.
Alex Kocher (44:58.478)
Mm.
Marty Solomon (45:09.579)
Well, the words we use, curiosity, attention, and wonder. I want us to engage our theology that way. It's not a closed conversation. It's something that we need to look at and go, wait a minute, we've always been reforming. We've always been restoring. We've always been thinking critically. Even in the Catholic faith, we've been shaping and evolving, and no matter who we are, we have been, that's normal. We act like it is, and we act like everything's been fixed forever. But it hasn't been, and it doesn't need to be today. So let's keep.
Alex Kocher (45:15.47)
you
Marty Solomon (45:38.943)
evolving, growing, shaping, making sure we're where we ought to be.
Alex Kocher (45:43.715)
Yeah. Well, just like this book is a bridge between your other two books, one you've written, one you're going to write, I feel like you're a bridge to a lot of people to that, to an Eastern type of thinking, to Jewish tradition, to different way to look at contextualization. so again, we just so appreciate you. From the first day that I listened to your podcast, I used to tell people when I would say, quote you, would say, my rabbi says.
Marty Solomon (46:13.047)
I did the same thing with my teachers. totally get it.
Alex Kocher (46:13.39)
So you can be the rabbi of our podcast conversational counseling. So we encourage our listeners to get this book, The Gospel of Being Human. What if being human isn't the problem but the point? And to find you at the Bayma podcast and to check you out at martysolomon.com.
Marty Solomon (46:21.773)
As long as it's a little R, I'm okay.
Alex Kocher (46:39.794)
and thank you so much, Marty. It's truly is a privilege for you to be here with us.
Marty Solomon (46:43.892)
Absolutely. Thank you for having me.