Season 12 Ep.3 / Is It Time to Draw the Line?
Brenda (00:03.256)
Happy birthday, happy, happy birthday. It's your birthday. Happy, happy birthday. Happy birthday, Alex! I've been waiting all morning to introduce this podcast just so I could do that. but seriously, happy birthday to you. Do you want to share with us how young you are this year?
Alex (00:04.238)
Thank you!
Alex (00:20.5)
Thank you. I am 54 years young.
Brenda (00:25.23)
54, Alex, you keep trying to keep up with me. And you're catching up fast. Well, the 50 I think just begins the wisdom year. So good for you. That's awesome. You got any special plans or anything you are planning toward for your birthday?
Alex (00:28.582)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Alex (00:37.556)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (00:42.396)
We went last week to a concert Chris Bodie who is a trumpeter, jazz trumpeter. Went to hear him last week, went to dinner. So that was our celebration. So I kind of keep forgetting today's my birthday. It's just a normal adulting day.
Brenda (00:58.958)
I get that. Well, sometimes it's just nice to expand the birthday out, you know, as long as you can. So that's great. Well, we just want you to know that here at our ministry and podcast, we love you. We thank God for you. You are a blessing. I know to Malia and myself, we know you personally, you are the real deal. You are authentic. You are precious. You are funny and you are godly and you are wise and you're wicked smart. And yeah, we're just so thankful. I know for me in my life, I just love you so much.
Alex (01:04.899)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Alex (01:17.076)
Hahaha
Alex (01:23.496)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (01:28.912)
just thank God for the years that He's given me to call you my friend and hope He gives us many, many more. So, yes, you are treasured, my friend. You're so welcome. Well, let's get into the next podcast of the season. This is season 12. We are calling it Boundaries, an Invitation to Love. And so far, we've been talking about boundaries in the context of it is a loving, it's a way to love well. That's been our emphasis.
Alex (01:34.708)
Amen. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Alex (01:49.448)
Mmm.
Brenda (01:58.844)
In episode one, we talked about how boundaries are a way to protect and honor ourselves and others and the glory of God. So we just want everybody to think about boundaries as having this big umbrella of love over it as we continue the conversation. And then in episode two, we talked about the biblical basis for boundaries. We looked at God's own example. We looked at the grand narrative and we kind of pulled that thread of boundaries through the scriptures. And then we looked at some practices.
Alex (02:14.803)
Mm-mm.
Brenda (02:28.687)
verses of how God is asking us to relate to ourselves, to our neighbors, to honor Him through wisdom, you know, and all the limits, really, of wisdom and love that are required to have healthy and God-honoring relationships. So today, we want to talk about when are boundaries needed?
Alex (02:51.303)
Yeah, I feel like now we're getting into the nitty gritty. Probably the part that everyone's been waiting for. I think that this question of when are boundaries needed, hopefully, again, I always have this thought as someone's listening, I'm always thinking of particular people that I'm talking to, I know you are too.
Brenda (02:54.805)
Yes, exactly.
Brenda (03:13.323)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Alex (03:14.579)
And I always want to say this thing that I find myself saying more and more on the podcast is like, we're not going to answer every question. We're giving tools and frameworks. And again, this is a framework for when boundaries are needed and there's still going to need to be conversations and prayer and thought around this idea of when boundaries are going to be needed in relationships. So the first big framework we want to give about when boundaries
Brenda (03:30.934)
Yeah.
Alex (03:41.158)
are needed is when personhood is not honored. So we've built our definition of boundaries around how image bearers should treat each other. And so we wanna talk about what it means to be an image bearer, what it means to be a person made in God's image. So the first thing would be recognizing our own God given dignity, recognizing that you are an image bearer worthy of respect and inherent worth. And that's rolls right off the tongue.
but that's actually hard for a lot of us to do. We've been trained in a good way to consider others. I love that teaching, but sometimes it's been absent the teaching to remember that we are also image bearers who need to have respect and to recognize our own inherent worth. And then, yeah.
Brenda (04:29.771)
Yeah. and I was just going to say, I feel like all of these we've been saying kind of lead into the next one, because that next one is to recognize that we've been given agency. And that just flows right from our dignity into our agency that God has made us responsible to make choices for ourselves, not to have other people come along and make choices for us or the flip side that we are making choices for other people that we're not called to make.
Alex (04:36.315)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Alex (04:54.521)
Right? And like you said, it flows with the idea that we have been given a God-given purpose. So we have to recognize that we have a God-given purpose. He allows us to have this decision making in order to be able to honor the specific calling, sphere, hmm, specific sphere of influence. Say that three times fast. We each have a sphere of influence that we've been placed in and
Brenda (05:15.885)
I was going to say, it's a tongue twister.
Alex (05:23.429)
And really what we're talking about is that we have to be able to say some no's if we're gonna say the big yeses that God calls us to. And so this is just a recognition that along with dignity and agency, we have a big purpose that God has placed in each one of us.
Brenda (05:39.245)
And won't you continue on with the last one.
Alex (05:41.208)
The last one is the one I don't like and that is remembering or recognizing that we have God-given limitations. And I think it's good for us to remember that we're finite creatures and we were made with these limitations even before the fall. We needed rest. We needed to remember that we were the created being and so we have
finite amounts of energy and strength and emotional capacity and often that means we're going to have to say no to all the different options, all the different choices, all the different things that are out there that we could say yes to but we just don't have the capacity for.
Brenda (06:21.163)
Yeah, I just think that's such a great thinking grid to walk through and process when we feel pushed, when we feel resentment, when we feel controlled in some way, like what's happening in those areas of our lives and how are we being impacted.
Alex (06:31.281)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (06:35.997)
The second place we want to talk about when boundaries are needed is when our safety or well-being is being threatened. And we know Alex, this could be physical safety, of course, in the matters of physical safety, but also even emotional safety. The scripture is replete with warnings of how words can be used as weapons, how ungodly speech does violence to the soul. you know, and again, sort of back to your point a few minutes ago, there's good
Alex (06:49.736)
Yeah.
Brenda (07:05.781)
be even a lot of nuance, that's a word we love, in determining some of these things. So wisdom is that ability to apply scripture and it takes a lot of nuancing to do that. But you know if you're in a situation where somebody is unsafe physically or emotionally then it's time to have some boundaries.
Alex (07:08.915)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (07:26.417)
Yeah, often in those situations, those boundaries are going to be very direct, very specific, and often very hard lines that you're going to draw when safety is being threatened.
Brenda (07:37.198)
Yeah. And then finally, if you're being asked to sin or condone sin, and this morning, I think it was in Acts three or four, where Peter and John are told by the religious leaders to not speak the name of Jesus again. And they say, are we going to obey you or are we going to obey God? And of course they go on. And so somebody tried to impose a boundary on them.
Alex (07:48.561)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Alex (07:56.86)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (07:57.228)
that was ungodly. And so they said, no way. So again, this is what we would call biblical resistance. We need to resist if we are being asked to sin or condone sin. All right, so as we think about this whole concept of when are boundaries needed, I think it's helpful to categorize people as safe and unsafe.
Alex (08:10.451)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (08:22.797)
And as we look at the scriptures, I think one of the fallacies we run into is thinking we should treat everybody the same. We're gonna open our arms wide, let everybody come eat at our table, kumbaya with everybody that we know. And that's just not true. The Bible instructs us how to deal with different people depending on their characterization.
Alex (08:37.991)
Ha
Brenda (08:47.519)
Now, a characterization is what a person is known for. How would we say that they generally conduct themselves in relationships? So, I mean, sometimes it gives us animal categories like wolves and goats and dogs. And sometimes it gives us characterizations that are descriptive, like evil, wicked, rebellious, quarrelsome, unrepentant. And we need to remember that the Bible also even warns us against sheep that bite, right, or sheep that stray.
Alex (08:50.834)
Right.
Alex (09:14.419)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brenda (09:17.663)
So, it's not just the unbeliever that can be unsafe. Sometimes, I find that, you know, in my own life, that, you know, there's unbelievers that are far safer than the believer is. So, again, that's why I like kind of this, this context of safe and unsafe people.
Alex (09:27.57)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (09:32.625)
Yeah, so we're going to use three basic types of people and the framework we're going to use is going to be wise, full,
and evil. And I just want to go ahead and say like the I know the word evil is a hard word. It's a it's it feels like a very heavy, very judgmental word. I hope that by giving it some definition, it will help people to see that we're not judging people's hearts. Again, I love what you said, we are looking at the actions that they're characterized by. And so keep that in mind as we talk about these three categories. The first one why is hopefully
Brenda (09:45.613)
Mm.
Alex (10:09.972)
we have a lot of wise people around us and here we're just we're talking about garden variety saints who they're not perfect but they are willing to examine their own actions and repent and that's going to be a kind of a turning or that's going to be the the key point in each one of these is whether or not people are willing to examine their own actions and repent because a fool is characterized by an unwillingness to examine themselves and repent.
Brenda (10:38.503)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, and we know that there's some different Hebrew words, right, Alex? We talk about garden variety saints. There's kind of a different varieties of fools as well.
Alex (10:52.05)
Right. And so we looked up those different words for a fool in the Old Testament and we see things like a fool is someone who resists wisdom and instruction, is morally corrupt. It could be someone who is led astray. They're just immature or naive. Could be someone who is arrogant or mocking. So the word fool in the Old Testament is used in a lot of different ways and kind of different characteristics are mentioned around the idea of a fool.
Brenda (11:20.405)
Yeah, and think it's really important for us to distinguish because you're not going to...
treat or interact with your teenage child the way you would with somebody at work who's cruel or unkind. I think about a teenager is going to require, you know, they're immature, they're naive, they're in development, and so they're going to require ongoing instruction, maybe some protective limits and tons of patience as they mature and grow up. But you're dealing, but if you're dealing with a co-worker who's always belittling you, slandering and gossiping about you or people around you, then that's
Alex (11:46.438)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (11:55.007)
That's going to require probably firmer boundaries and consequences more quickly in how you're going to interact with that person.
Alex (12:02.277)
Yeah, and I think about the Old Testament story of Abigail and Nabal or Nabal. I'm not exactly sure how to pronounce his name, but Abigail's husband and I think his name means fool. Is that right? Yeah.
Brenda (12:15.412)
Yep, yep, that's my understanding.
Alex (12:16.997)
So then, if we are remembering the story correctly, Abigail is watching as Nabal refuses to provide for King David's army. And so what she does is she just kind of goes around him and she provides for them recognizing his foolish behavior. And in this case, she chooses not to confront him, but just to make the decision on her own. But she recognizes that he
is probably like you said probably not immature and naive but more arrogant mocking and and maybe even you could say morally corrupt unwilling to provide for those in need.
Brenda (13:00.402)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's good. So here's a question. Why the next category is going to be the evil person. This person is unwilling to repent, but in addition displays behavior that is harmful to others. And you mentioned that it's hard for us to recognize this category of evil. And I'm just curious if you have any thoughts on why that is.
Alex (13:06.802)
Hmm.
Alex (13:23.377)
Well, again, because I think that immediately we think we're judging someone's heart and almost condemning them to hell, you know, like if somebody's evil. And that's why I just want to say like we're not judging a heart posture. We're certainly not saying they're unredemptive, right? They're not beyond God's grace, but we are choosing to look at the outward behavior and to see what they're characterized by.
Brenda (13:30.732)
Mm.
Brenda (13:41.686)
That's right.
Alex (13:53.253)
And I don't know, I don't know, maybe it's just me, but the word evil feels so heavy and dark. And it's, yeah.
Brenda (13:59.883)
And it is, I think that's part of it. It's just like, so far from gospel, right? So far from love and wisdom and righteousness and truth that it's just like, it's terrible.
Alex (14:06.095)
Yes.
Alex (14:10.788)
And then to think about applying that category to someone you know and you're interacting with, it kind of like your mind resists that idea. And I watch people when I teach these categories even in counseling, like I watch them draw back from that word.
Brenda (14:16.17)
Yeah.
Brenda (14:21.504)
Yeah.
Brenda (14:30.25)
Yeah. Well...
If God talks about it, we have to talk about it. And if God calls people evil and wicked, then we need to be able to recognize that as well. And I do think this is an area that, you know, we, we, because of all the reasons you've just stated, we do want to really watch behavior and the actions of this person to discern correctly. But the Bible is going to use words like violent and destructive, oppressive. This is a character, you know, they're characterized by rebellion. The Bible talks about hardness of heart.
Alex (14:34.908)
True.
Alex (14:48.944)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (15:02.606)
And I think a great example is in Matthew's gospel where we have King Herod who not only is unwilling to accept that there's the Messiah coming, he's not going to repent and accept there's, you know, Messiah is on stage and needs to be recognized, but he's going to go so far as to have him killed.
Alex (15:23.921)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (15:24.318)
Right, so the remember the wise men come and he sends them out to find them and when they don't come back because obviously they recognize he's a dangerous man.
because Herod was a dangerous man in fact. They don't come back to say anything to him. They just avoid him altogether. He goes and he kills all the babies and children to and under in the region. I mean just the harm, the hardness of heart that that would take, the wickedness and evil of a man like that. And then we know that the angel comes and warns Mary and Joseph, get up and get out of here. Go, you know, leave. Go to safety. So I just, I think that this is a hard category, but I know for you
Alex (15:44.692)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Alex (15:56.87)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (16:03.436)
and I both in counseling, I mean we see this. We see people who act in evil and wicked ways and set out to do much harm to the people around them.
Alex (16:05.946)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (16:13.328)
And I think what could get really confusing here, Brenda, is obviously King Herod is not claiming the name of Christ, right? He is clearly opposing God's plan. What can get really confusing are when we meet people who do claim the name of Jesus, who do claim to be Christians, and then we see destructive behaviors. And that's where I find I have the hardest conversations with people. That's where there's just a lot of grief, a lot of confusion. And one of the things that I do talk to people
Brenda (16:19.382)
Correct.
Brenda (16:28.671)
Yep.
Brenda (16:32.533)
Yes.
Brenda (16:40.298)
Yes.
Alex (16:43.472)
about is how evil does create confusion. There is a lot of confusion around this topic of trying to discern these things and I always tell people like it comes with the territory there's not something wrong with you that this is hard to see like evil itself creates confusion.
Brenda (16:47.403)
Yep.
Brenda (17:00.498)
Absolutely, because the enemy is crafty.
Alex (17:03.249)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (17:06.802)
It is very disorienting when somebody is saying something, making a profession of Christ with their lips, but their lives, they're unrepentant and they're doing harm to other people. And that's what we go back to. have to look at the actions and we take action based on their actions. And to your point, we're not saying they're unredeemable and they can't come to repentance, but we've got to deal with the actions and the person that we're seeing.
So I really like the way Henry Cloud says that you can know a person by what they do with the light or the truth. And he says, a wise person receives the light and then makes adjustments, right? They receive truth and they make adjustments accordingly. The Fool does the opposite. He rejects the light. He deflects it. He rejects it. He rejects feedback. He resisted. He explains it away and does nothing to adjust to meet the requirements of truth or light. And an evil person will do what they
Alex (17:39.334)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (17:49.702)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (18:02.574)
can to extinguish the light.
Alex (18:04.7)
Yeah.
And I think it's a good place to say like, that's not something we do a one and done, right? If we're really going to evaluate how a person receives light, how they receive truth, we're gonna have to look at patterns over time. That's what characterization means, right? Patterns over time. So we're not asking people to go, I had this one interaction. It was terrible. And so they're gone. So this is an over time,
Brenda (18:18.091)
Yep.
Brenda (18:22.826)
That's right. That's right.
Brenda (18:29.247)
Right.
Yeah, yeah.
Alex (18:35.572)
watching and receiving counsel and watching in different situations.
So the million dollar question, how do we interact with each type of person? So wise people are safe people, right? Proverbs 9 says, correct the wise and they will love you, instruct the wise and they will be wiser still, teach the righteous and they will add to their learning. I say this so often is that what makes someone a safe person is not that they are perfect.
If it was, then no one on this earth would be safe, right? They are safe because they're wise, because everyone is gonna feel unsafe some part of the time because everyone has the capacity to sin against us, everyone has the capacity to hurt us. But a wise person is willing to examine their actions, take responsibility, be willing to see how they impact others, and they're willing to change.
Brenda (19:10.38)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (19:34.754)
Yep.
Yeah, and I think what we know about wise people too is that they can enter into hard conversations and the relationship will be better as a result, So I just think about, you know, Matthew 18, if your brother sins against you, go and point out their fault just between the two of you. And if they listen, you've won them over. So I think many of us, probably all of us can think of a time that we had some sort of disagreement with someone or even over time, just a disagreement. And we were able
Alex (19:43.931)
Right.
Brenda (20:06.08)
work it out and now the relationship is even better and stronger, right? Because, because wisdom, both people have grown in wisdom. So with the wise person, they're safe because they'll take feedback, you're going to have the hard conversations with them, and that's actually going to make the relationship better.
Alex (20:09.261)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (20:22.512)
Mm-hmm. Mm-mm.
Brenda (20:23.2)
But that would not be true with foolish people. Because foolish people, as we've said, are unsafe because they will not accept responsibility for their actions and change. They're not going to be willing to talk about the impact that their actions have had on other people. And Proverbs 23, 9 warns, do not speak to a fool for he will despise the wisdom of your words.
Alex (20:45.017)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (20:48.064)
Yeah, I think there's some things we have to look at when we look at a foolish person and how they do this, how they deflect. And one of the ways they do that, Alex, is through denial, right? Just outright saying they didn't do something, they clearly did, or simply refusing to talk about what happened can be a method.
Alex (21:05.346)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, so they deny or minimize where they'll take partial responsibility or they'll downplay how bad something was. And so you don't see a full taking of responsibility or owning impact.
Brenda (21:21.278)
Yeah, and I think both of those tend to be a little bit more covert, but they will also attack. Sometimes a fool is just going to turn on you, calling you names, demeaning, throwing up past incidents in your face. You know, they're trying to take the focus off of themselves and put the focus back on you.
Alex (21:25.136)
Yeah.
Alex (21:28.772)
Hmm.
Alex (21:38.832)
Mm-hmm.
And what goes along with that is the blame shifting, right? Then they're going to deflect responsibility back to you and convince you that the whole thing was your fault and they acted the way they did because of you. So with foolish people, we see the need to establish boundaries, see how they respond and then put consequences in place accordingly. And you know, I think what's, what's hard about this for so many people is that
extremes are easier.
Right? No contact, full contact are easier places to live. And a lot of times what I find with foolish people is we have to, it's organic, it's unfolding. We're watching, we're waiting, we're praying. And Dan Allender says we're being creative, which I love this idea of bringing creativity into it is that we can tend to start to think there's only one or two ways to do something. And Dan Allender says this actually requires a lot of creativity.
Brenda (22:14.301)
Yeah, right.
Brenda (22:25.568)
Yep.
Brenda (22:30.975)
Yeah.
Brenda (22:37.323)
Right.
Alex (22:41.459)
creativity to think through how to say things, how to address certain situations, to change dynamics. I think of things like holidays, right? We tend to think there's one or two ways that our family does it. Well, maybe not. Maybe it's time for us to get really creative and think differently about how we're going to approach this. And so this category of foolishness, I think actually requires the most thoughtfulness, the most intentionality and the most creativity.
Brenda (22:43.051)
Okay.
Brenda (22:50.955)
Mm.
Brenda (23:06.485)
Yep.
Brenda (23:10.278)
Yeah, yeah, and I think we'll delve more into that in our next podcast when we talk about how to set boundaries. But I think you're absolutely right.
would be nice sometimes if it was one and done. But often it's not because oftentimes these decisions and categories and interactions are done with people in close proximity, right? I mean, whether it's family members or people at work, things like that. Okay, so the final category is evil people. We've already said, you know, that they're unsafe because they're not willing to accept responsibility for their actions and they are destructive and that they will seek retaliation.
Alex (23:20.185)
Yes.
Alex (23:30.725)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (23:47.422)
and revenge and they'll use any means necessary to hurt you and even destroy you. And a lot of times they don't care about the collateral damage, right? The people around them. can see this sometimes. You know, I think we see this a lot in situations where we have a very destructive husband and he is even after post divorce. He's still coming after the wife to hurt her and harm her. But actually the children are also getting hurt in that process as well. So what do we do with an evil person?
Alex (23:55.92)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (24:03.887)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (24:10.147)
Right.
Alex (24:15.4)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (24:17.335)
should seek safety and protection. And you know a lot of times that means moving away from that person, being you know not being in contact with that person like there's going to be full-on separation in order for there to be protection.
Alex (24:19.5)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Alex (24:33.369)
Hmm.
So how do we know who is wise, who is foolish, who is evil? And as we've mentioned several times, this is going to take a lot of prayer for discernment. We're going to have to just continue to ask the Lord, just what kind of person am I dealing with here? Jesus says a lot of things that like you said, with these metaphors of animals. He says, I'm sending you out as sheep in the midst of wool. So be wise as serpent and innocent as doves. And to be wise as serpent,
that we have to be aware of potential dangers. We have to understand the tactics. We have to see who might be seeking to do harm or deceive and we have to discern that. We have to discern someone's actions and words. But to be gentle as a dove means we have to approach the situation with this kindness, with a willingness not to do harm ourselves because often we want to return harm for harm. We have to avoid unnecessary conflict and try to
to maintain a spirit of love and compassion. And I'll say here that I think sometimes that means that the boundary we place is on ourselves where we can pull back to have this time to discern. I don't think that should be a forever thing, but I do think there's certainly times where we create a little bit of distance to be able to see things a little bit more clearly because up close feels very emotional, feels very reactive, and we need to step back in order to be able
Brenda (26:01.429)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (26:04.451)
to pray and seek discernment.
Brenda (26:06.731)
Yeah, and I just want to add also that this is part of what the Holy Spirit has promised to do. He's promised to give us discernment. We don't know the hearts of people, but he does. And sometimes I find that we can err on the side of not trusting what the Holy Spirit is showing us because, you we don't want to be wrong. We don't want to be wrong. But I even think sometimes we do pull away and we wait to see if we are wrong. And that's OK, too.
Alex (26:11.824)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (26:24.833)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Alex (26:33.334)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Brenda (26:35.627)
So asking the Holy Spirit and God has just been so faithful. I've just seen so many times that I have asked for discernment and seen the Lord give discernment and then even what's the word I'm looking for verify or validate that discernment right over time.
So the second thing we want to think about is watching behavior over time. Again, we just said we're all sinful people. We're going to sin against one another. We're going to hurt each other. But what are we characterized by? And the person you're looking at, what direction are they going going in? And in some ways, we can't be heart readers, but we can be fruit inspectors. We can look at the actions and the words and the attitudes and those sort of things. And and we want to know
Alex (27:16.304)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (27:23.213)
like has the heart changed? And we've said this before that fast fruit usually is not a good indication of lasting fruit. And so we want to be able to look at that. So I think a few things we can ask is, is this person willing to respect your limits when you tell them no? What do they do with a no?
Alex (27:38.267)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (27:41.61)
That is a big indicator of where somebody is in their growth process, particularly if you've had conversations with them, you've been praying for them. Do they respect it? How do they argue, retaliate? And someone once said that boundaries reveal what's true about a person and a relationship. And it's really true. Like, is there mutual respect going on here? And then I just think when they cross the boundary, do they have a growing awareness? Like, are they catching themselves? Or if you point it out, will they acknowledge the trespass and will they
Alex (27:41.744)
Right.
Brenda (28:11.733)
the correction and if you point it out will they do that without becoming defensive like even getting to the point where I want to be is that I would welcome that right that if I have like in a loving relationship I'm thinking I don't want to hurt you so if I'm doing something that is sinful against you or even this just hurting you then I want to I want to be a correctable I want to gain self-awareness and I want to make those changes
Alex (28:20.175)
Right.
Alex (28:35.524)
Hmm.
And you know, we've said several times examine words and actions, but I just want to remind people that a lot of times what we are also examining is whether words and actions align. So we, we sometimes encounter people who are willing to say the right things, but they're not willing to follow through with loving actions. And that's a big indicator of whether someone is a safe person or not. there is that can again cause a lot of confusion.
Brenda (28:47.433)
Yes, correct.
Brenda (28:58.251)
That's right.
Brenda (29:06.538)
Yep.
Alex (29:06.725)
And that's one of the things we're looking at when we're asking for discernment.
Brenda (29:11.295)
Yeah.
Alex (29:11.397)
The other thing we want to remind people is to give small opportunities to demonstrate change or to prove trustworthiness. We're not trying again, like we said, to just make this judgment and never revisit it again. And I love what Adam Young encourages people. He says, give people a small pearl. And what he means by that is if we suspect that someone's unwilling to honor our boundaries, we're going to start small and trust them with some words or ideas that might not feel
incredibly vulnerable that's just a little bit of revelation and progress slowly or we're going to give them a little a small boundary so to speak and see how they react to that. So things like this like can we talk about what happened last week when we were having coffee just to see how someone's if they're going to lean in in that moment or they're already going to bristle and become defensive. I sometimes find it difficult to bring up how I'm feeling around you.
Brenda (30:01.012)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (30:05.692)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (30:11.116)
you're revealing just enough for them to be able to respond with kindness and care, but not so much that it can be weaponized against you. Or another one maybe just like, I'm not sure you realize how you made me feel last week at dinner. And again, it's there's an invitation implicit in these comments. I'm checking to see if you're willing to lean in. If you're willing to say, I want to know how I affect you. I want to know how my actions or words have been received by
Brenda (30:16.031)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (30:19.55)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (30:41.006)
other people because I can't always see that or if you immediately are getting a stiff arm of like I didn't I didn't do anything wrong I don't know what you're talking about that's a little pearl that's giving you a little bit of information that's gonna let you know how much more you're going to reveal.
Brenda (30:48.414)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brenda (30:56.318)
Yeah, boy, that's all so helpful, Alex. Well, the final...
Thing we want to think about is in setting boundaries as we want to seek counsel from wise others. Proverbs 1114 says in an abundance of counselors there is safety and I do think sometimes we're so close to a situation we really can't see clearly. Our emotions are entangled. Our desire to be godly and good and a witness gets manipulated by other people and we need you know we really need people around us that can help clarify.
what we're dealing with and the kind of person that we're dealing with and then help us strategize a little bit about what would be a godly response.
Alex (31:42.065)
So I'm gonna push back a little bit on this one, because while I don't think we should go alone when we're evaluating these things, I have also seen people go to the other extreme.
Brenda (31:53.875)
Yeah.
Alex (31:54.481)
And I've seen people begin to just ask everyone that they know. If it's a family situation, ask all the other family members what they should do. And they actually seek too many counselors or opinions. And we're just encouraging people to be wise in who they select as their counselors. Make sure you're selecting people who understand these biblical categories or motivations of wise and full and evil.
Don't select people who think you can treat everyone the same or even I would say who's maybe themselves too close to the situation to be able to counsel you well. Like in other words, oftentimes what I see is family members talking to each other, but they're all experiencing the same thing. But one person is ready to start to set some boundaries and the other one is not and they will encourage the other person not to do that because they aren't ready. So at that point I would say get somebody
Brenda (32:28.394)
Okay.
Brenda (32:51.678)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Alex (32:54.414)
little bit more objective, a little bit further away from the situation who understands these categories. So while it is wise to seek wise counselors, there is a limit sometimes to how many people you can ask about a situation. One, because you want to protect the reputation of the person that you're talking about and two, because it will just get more confusing. You'll get so much different advice.
Brenda (33:18.344)
Yeah, I agree. No, I think that's really good. And I think also...
Going back to the same person so they can build with you on what's going on, because I think we pop in and out of people's lives and we get opinions and they haven't, you you go from A to Z and there's been all these things that have happened, but nobody has seen what's happened in between. And now they're making, they're giving you counsel based on partial information. So if you partial information, you get partial counsel. And I've seen that as well. And I've even been guilty of giving counsel like that. Somebody comes and
Alex (33:38.398)
huh.
Alex (33:48.856)
Yes.
Brenda (33:54.963)
they have a relationship difficulty and I've got kind of my quick, well, I just think you need to da-da-da-da-da with them instead of really taking the time. And I think also you have to grow in the ability to set boundaries and hold boundaries. And so finding somebody who will allow you to grow and be patient with your growth.
Alex (34:11.162)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (34:16.526)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (34:16.958)
because I can see that also sometimes counselors get really frustrated. Well, I've told you this a hundred times, you need to whatever, right? So I just think this whole idea of being very wise, find a counselor who is not emotionally impacted. And by counselor, we don't mean professional necessarily. It could be a professional, but just a wise, godly other, but somebody who's not emotionally impacted, somebody who will take the time to listen to all the details and time and time again, listen to you so they can understand the whole situation.
Alex (34:21.935)
Yeah.
Alex (34:44.57)
Yes.
Brenda (34:46.892)
And then also somebody who's going to be patient, understanding that particularly if you're having to set boundaries with somebody that you're in close relationship with, it's really hard. Because a lot of times when you say there are limits and those limits produce consequences for other people, those consequences impact you as well.
Alex (34:56.462)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (35:05.992)
right, because they impact the relationship. So it can be really hard. So we need to, I think particularly as people helpers, we need to be very, very mindful to make sure we are, you know, are we, where are our emotions in this? Are we gathering all the information or are we being patient with the person who's having to set these difficult boundaries and make these decisions?
Alex (35:26.552)
Yeah. So let's just summarize when we think boundaries are needed. We think boundaries are needed when
personhood is not being honored when safety or well-being is threatened and when we're being asked to sin or condone sin. And we just want to remember that different people require different boundary strategies and that we're going to grow in discernment of when and how to set boundaries through prayer, observation, and wise counsel. So as we proceed in our talk about boundaries, Brenda, I think next
we're going to talk about how there's actually some real skill in how we set boundaries.
Brenda (36:11.472)
Absolutely. Looking forward to it, Alex. I hope you have a great happy birthday.
Alex (36:15.14)
Thank you.