Season 12 Ep.5 / Stop Being a Doormat
Alex (00:04.408)
So Brenda, we're back with our season on boundaries and it may not feel like a long.
gap for our listeners, but for us it's been several weeks since we've recorded. And so we wanted to just give a little update because it's the holidays as we're recording this. And so we're talking a lot about boundaries with a lot of different people. And we're also very involved with our families and with fun extracurricular activities. So what have you been up to?
Brenda (00:27.087)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (00:36.599)
Well, the first thing I just want to mention is we did take our annual ministry retreat. We take it every year the first part of November and that was just a
Alex (00:40.278)
Hmm.
Brenda (00:44.171)
exciting, relaxing, encouraging. We got some stats that we didn't know that were super fun, and that is we realized that we are almost to our 100th episode, and we've been going for four years, and in that time, we've had 32,000 streams and reached 70 countries. So it was like, wow, God.
Alex (00:55.916)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (01:06.378)
I really feel like I should feel like less of an imposter after hearing those stats and it really hasn't gone away. Yeah, it does.
Brenda (01:13.058)
It almost heightens it a little bit, doesn't it? Yeah. Oh, well, the other thing I just want to mention is that we did establish something we're calling the CareWell Collective. And if this podcast has been helpful to you, we would invite you to join that collective. We're just asking you to contribute $10 to $20 a month for the 2026 year to help this podcast just continue to
create content that's free to our listeners. also, I think we're being a little bit less, well, we're not less content driven, but we're trying to be also more community driven moving forward. be looking for some exciting things there. If you join that collective, there's some few perks, know, so you have to join to see what they are. But we just have such a great audience and so much great feedback. We would love to be more involved with you and get you involved more with one another.
Alex (01:51.074)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (02:09.624)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (02:09.92)
So moving on from there, guess, you know, one of the highlights of our break has been Paul and I took a trip to Nashville and we went and saw Pat Benatar and Bryan Adams. You got to be, you know, my age to probably know who those people are. Hit me with your best shot and all the things. Did a little singer songwriter, went back to our old little place we'd like to go to there. And then we stayed at the Opryland Hotel, which is just fantastic, particularly at the holidays. And then we went to the Opryland and I just think
Alex (02:15.702)
Yes?
Alex (02:23.679)
Mm-hmm. I love it
Alex (02:33.262)
I love that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brenda (02:39.866)
everybody should do it once in their life. It's really fantastic. We had a rather large Thanksgiving. We had a lot of family in for Thanksgiving I hosted and now this week on the heels of Thanksgiving, I've really been pulling out our prayer season. And so far, Alex, let's see. I've been able to do the exam and prayer giving thanks for all the incredible moments of Thanksgiving. There was some lament about some things that were hard and sad. My parents were not able to make it this year.
Alex (02:41.45)
Uh-huh.
Alex (02:54.84)
Yeah.
Brenda (03:09.776)
My mother has gone downhill her dementia is getting worse and physically and mentally so that was just really sad They always bring their German flair. My mother's German and we were missing that Then I had to just be honest with you. I had to do a burn journal for something that happened That I couldn't quite get over in my heart and mind and I needed to reckon with it and a lot of times I don't burn those because you know I'm a words person and I like to hold on to every draft of everything I write I can't stand apart with my words
Alex (03:11.862)
Hmm. Hmm.
Brenda (03:39.649)
because I might forget something I said, well this one I actually typed it on the computer and then we hit delete because I was like nobody ever needs to read that. And then finally, you know what I ended with in a manual journal which I am just finding more and more to be such a comfort for me, particularly on the heels of some of the lament and the burn just to come back to knowing that Jesus sees, he knows, he hears, he loves, he cares and he's able to move on my behalf and does move on my behalf. And then finally, the one maybe disappointing thing of my holiday
Alex (03:54.03)
Sweet.
Hmm.
Alex (04:04.461)
you
Brenda (04:09.622)
if I'm being honest and I hope that nobody will throw stones at me here, is that we went and saw Wicked 2.
Alex (04:15.211)
Brenda (04:16.59)
And you know, it's been a year and we're a big wicked family. think Paul and I have seen the play at least three times and maybe four at this point. I can't remember and we were so looking forward to it and it was good. I'm not saying it wasn't good, but it just wasn't as good as I wanted it to be. Yeah, I know. Yeah, but that's OK. They'll be, you know, it I can always go back and watch the first one again and again and again and again. So anyway, with that being said, that's my update and I'm going to stick with
Alex (04:31.318)
shoot, I haven't seen it yet.
Brenda (04:46.614)
at this point. So I think we need to move on to actually getting back into our episode on the challenge of boundaries. That's what we're going to be talking about today. And I can just say as a recovering people pleaser, this has been really difficult for me. You know, just learning to set and hold boundaries. And I have had many opportunities to practice this because I have had many failures along the way.
Alex (04:48.129)
Yeah.
Alex (04:55.38)
yeah.
Alex (05:03.713)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (05:15.573)
Yeah, I think that it's funny to me how I think of boundaries as a skill and yet it's not a skill that gets easier. I think we, I do think we can develop skill in it. I think it's something that we can of course learn wisdom in how to do it, but it doesn't get easier.
Brenda (05:35.5)
And that's a great point.
Alex (05:36.628)
Yeah, and I think we expect it to and we're going to talk in a little while about grief and I think there's a lot of reason why it doesn't get any easier, but it is a skill that's rooted in wisdom and we are learning to treat others wisely and we're also asking others to treat us wisely and so we want to be able to not break other people's boundaries, but we also want to be able to hold our own boundaries with grace and truth and one of the things we keep
Brenda (05:42.072)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Alex (06:06.521)
talking about in this conversation, and I know you talk about it with people you meet with, is that how we deal with conflict in relationship is directly related to what was modeled for us in our family of origin, what other experiences we've had with difficult people, our own natural personality bent, and then just the sinfulness in our own hearts. So there's a lot of complexity around the topic of boundaries.
Brenda (06:30.254)
Yeah, and that's why, you know, God's brought us into a new family with new ways of relating, and so it is a learning process, and we can thankfully overcome those things that make it difficult for us and be able to relate differently. We've also said that, you know, when we hold boundaries too tight,
We love can't breathe, right? This is like this tightness around it. But if we're loosey goosey and we don't have any boundaries, then really love loses its shape. It just becomes just each, you know? So in this episode, we're gonna talk at the tensions we feel in setting boundaries, because we tend to all kind of fall into one ditch or another. How setting boundaries is less about dictating behaviors and really more about understanding our identity.
Alex (06:55.009)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Alex (07:03.243)
Yeah.
Brenda (07:23.406)
and living out our identity. And like you said, what role grief plays in boundaries? I'm gonna share a personal story on that. And then what hope that Christ offers for those who struggle to set boundaries, which is probably either most of us setting them or setting them wrongly or not setting them at all. Yeah.
Alex (07:23.467)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (07:41.602)
Mm-hmm.
So as you said, we're going to dive into the tension and I really like the word picture of the tension, the way we're going to present the tension that having too many boundaries, we become a fortress and not having enough boundaries or having too few boundaries, we become a doormat. And of course we've talked about before that the gospel, there's always a gospel third way, which I love that teaching and the gospel way,
boundaries is recognizing that we do have fences and that those fences have gates so there are places where there are no's there are places where there are
and don't go past this point, but there are also entry points into relationship. And so the gospel way is to continue to see boundaries as a way to set limits, but also make a way for relationship to continue. So we're going to start with talking about being a fortress. If I have too many boundaries, I'm all walls and no way in. And we've probably all been that at some point in our lives, and we probably all experienced that in relationship with other people. And this is often just a response where there's an over
of someone who's been burned too many times and who just says I'm gonna protect myself and I'm not gonna let anyone in. And so the reaction is to just set the boundaries with everything with everyone or at the first sight of conflict or any relational difficulty they push away, get no contact. And you know I've been talking Brenda just about how much no contact has just become part of even the...
Brenda (09:18.702)
Hmm.
Alex (09:20.377)
the conversation at large and how much we're running into people who quickly go no contact in relationship. And so this fortress mentality is alive and well.
Brenda (09:26.339)
Yeah.
Brenda (09:32.343)
Mm-hmm. It sure is.
Well, kind of the opposite of that, then we would say is the doormat. The doormat has too few boundaries and we might say it's all welcome with no guardrails. There's no wisdom here. you know, doormat is basically you can walk all over me. It's the mindset of the people pleaser. We all know the martyrs, right? We all have a martyr probably in our family or maybe we are the martyr and really just hopefully not. Or the person that just doesn't want to rock the boat.
Alex (09:42.785)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (09:48.876)
Yeah.
Alex (09:58.601)
Hahaha
Brenda (10:04.336)
It's just that person that's very fear driven, that they're going to make people angry, that people will be disappointed or upset with them. And so, yeah, they just don't have any boundaries or a few.
Alex (10:17.323)
Mm-hmm.
So thankfully there, the gospel does make a way forward in relationship and the gospel way acknowledges how God made us. And so we've rooted this whole conversation in boundaries in our Mago day and the fact that we bear God's image. And because of that, have agency and dignity and we have purpose and limitations and we have to recognize those because God does not because we demand those, but because God says this is who we are and how we should treat one another.
And so we just recognize that the gospel way means that love builds a fence not to keep people out, but to define what's worth protecting, what's sacred. And so we said grace opens the gates, but wisdom guards it. And so we wanna always have a way, like we said, a way into relationship, a way to maintain relationship. Here's the way that you can honor my image bearing and I can honor you.
yours and we can stay in relationship together and here's some things that we have to recognize aren't going to honor that.
Brenda (11:26.7)
Yeah.
Well, and we keep saying that this is all about love. It's all about honor and glory. And so. Yeah, I think we need to also just recognize that there is a spiritual warfare component in this as well, that the enemy does not does not want good relationships, does not want us to be healthy, does not want us rooted in that Amago day, does not want us to honor other people in that way. And so there's going to be a battle to be able to be wise in the
Alex (11:41.377)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (11:45.803)
Right.
Brenda (11:57.473)
limits that we set. so I think what we ought to do, Alex, is just take a little time and maybe look at some of the specific reasons of why it's hard to set and hold boundaries.
Alex (12:08.628)
Yeah, so we want to go through those four categories of dignity, agency, purpose, and limitations and remember that the hardest part for a lot of people about setting boundaries is remembering that we are an image bearer. And so the image bearer that we often have to honor is us and that feels icky for a lot of people. It feels selfish. And so we just want to remind people that honor
the image bearer in another person also means honoring the image bearing in myself. honoring boundaries reflects the beauty of being made in God's image. But we do struggle to live that out. So when we think about our dignity, we often fall again these two ditches of either forgetting our dignity or we try to protect our dignity at all costs. so a lot of people, a lot of us at all different times
struggle to believe that we are worthy of honor and respect. And so it's hard to remember that and ask for what we need in relationships. Particularly we talk about people pleaders often confusing like humility with diminishing themselves. It's a, it's a, I think a false form of pride actually.
Brenda (13:25.25)
Yeah.
Brenda (13:29.614)
Yeah, yeah, I would agree. I confess.
Alex (13:31.929)
And yeah, me too. And I would also say that some of this comes out of our suffering story that if we've had abuse or trauma, we may believe that we have no worth because our dignity was taken from us. It was stolen and acts of violence or neglect. And that can certainly shape the fact that we don't see or understand the dignity that God's placed and the worth that God's placed in us. So we don't even know that we need to protect that.
Brenda (13:39.491)
Yeah.
Brenda (14:02.082)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, that's so good. The second thing we just want to talk about is how we can also give up our agency or we overuse our agency in the lives of others and then we become controlling or domineering. And again, know, sin and suffering distorts our identity and our sense of responsibility. So we either over function or under function when it comes to agency or the responsibility. And even going back to your point about just how we are raised, if you're raised in a home where somebody
Alex (14:15.168)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (14:33.688)
is always making decisions for you, always telling you what to do, you're never really gaining any confidence in how to gain that agency or you so somebody's ruling over you or if you're just given a full, full reign to you know, to run over other people, then as you mature into adult, you're not going to have a proper view of agency, your God-given agency and how to operate in that as an adult.
Alex (14:58.004)
Yeah, and I think we probably see, we see both sides of this, right? We see people who underuse it and they don't ask for things, they don't use their choices, and then we see people overuse it in the sense of they're going to set so many expectations and so many boundaries up that the way into relationships is almost impossible.
Brenda (15:22.7)
Yeah, that's right.
Alex (15:24.232)
And then we also lose sight of our purpose or else we elevate our purpose. So we were all made with purpose from God. There's the big purposes that God's given us, but then they're also specific to each one of our own lives. And so we can lose sight of that and just let others trample that in the fact that we never actually get to be people who live out the purpose that God's placed before us, because we're saying yes to so many things out there that other people are asking us to do. But the flip side of that is we can become so focused
on this calling or purpose that we believe God's given us, that we elevate that above everything else and there's no way for other people to be in relationship with us because we have kind of shut ourselves off from sacrificing and giving and truly loving others because we believe we have to do this one thing. And it's really a way that we confuse the good things that God's given us and we make them too big.
Brenda (15:59.844)
Yeah.
Alex (16:22.642)
and we make them god-like things.
Brenda (16:25.123)
You
Well, I'm even seeing already in each of these, love is the equilibrium, right? Love is the balance of this all. And so it really takes walking in love, walking with Jesus, learning Jesus's ways. And it's the same with our limits. If we ignore our limits or we place too many limitations on people or situations, then again, we begin to destroy love. And oftentimes, you know, in our own pride, we can think, you know, I can do it all or I have to do it all. Nobody else can do it like me.
Alex (16:29.44)
Mm-hmm
Alex (16:53.868)
Hmm.
Brenda (16:55.888)
or the other side of that can be our shame that says, you know, you can't do this, you'll fail at this, you're no good at this. And so again, there's these identity messages that the world tells us, other people tell us, we tell ourselves that encourage us or tempt us to step out of the limits that God has given us.
Alex (17:07.276)
Hmm.
Alex (17:17.682)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, so we talked about how boundaries not only protect our image bearing, but it also brings honor to others and to God. And I really have not thought about this as much until we created this podcast that boundaries can ultimately be an act of worship, that they're an act of an expression of the way we want to love God and obey him and the way we want to love other people. And therefore it is a worship issue as almost
Brenda (17:23.554)
You
Brenda (17:38.723)
Yeah.
Alex (17:49.582)
That's all things are. I just never thought about it in that paradigm.
Brenda (17:50.702)
That's right. That's right.
Yeah, and I think particularly when we define worship as we have in other podcasts is loving, trusting, and obeying God, that we're oriented toward God and because of his his great love for us, we're living and walking out worship because of that. And, you know, probably a great example of my own life is when we were in the throes of addiction with our son, there was just a lot of consequence that were coming to him because of his own choices.
Alex (18:01.387)
Mm.
Brenda (18:23.803)
And you know, a mama's heart, we can't stand to see our children suffer, even if they put themselves in that situation. It is so hard, and particularly when the consequences are getting more and more weighty. And so I really had to do some boundary work, which really meant making three costly, faith-filled choices. And the first thing I had to choose was to love God more than I clung to my son or even my own life. I go back to that verse in Luke 14, 26,
Alex (18:29.949)
Yes.
Alex (18:50.666)
Hmm.
Brenda (18:53.583)
If you want to be my disciple, must by comparison hate everyone else, your father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes even your own life. Otherwise you can't be my disciple. And so our deepest allegiance has to be to Christ. Not because he wants us to love our family members any less, but because only his love can truly save them or us. So in other words, in comparison, I just had to say I'm going to choose to love God. And if I'm going to love him,
Alex (18:58.953)
Hmm.
Brenda (19:23.603)
it means I'm going to have to trust him and obey him. And that was the second commitment. I had to choose to trust God's wisdom above my frantic understanding and entrust my broken heart into his care. All of my instincts, you know, were shouting that I was responsible in charge, needed to fix it, needed to cover it, needed to do all the things that would shield him and lessen the fall and lessen the impact for him. But I really had
to trust that God was doing something deeper than any amount of rescue I could do, know, any amount of rescue that I could do. And so in the third thing, I had to choose to obey God rather than to try to control outcomes. And you know, when you're, when you're in a situation like that and you have to step back, Alex, it can really feel like betrayal, particularly when it's a close family member or a close friend, when somebody is very damaging in their relationship with you and you're having
Alex (20:15.392)
Hmm.
Brenda (20:23.329)
to step back. It feels very counter Christian, very counter intuitive, right? But stepping back sometimes can actually be obedience and the most loving thing we can do. And you know, it really is like that idea of surrender because we in surrender, we have to choose to trust. We have to choose to trust. So surrendering the illusion that I could change or determine the story or lessen the consequences. And you know, all of this time, which was
Alex (20:43.509)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (20:53.199)
over a decade that this was going on, I just had to keep placing my heart into Jesus's hands because this repeated process of learning boundaries, of keeping boundaries, of speaking boundaries, of having unspoken boundaries, of all the things, of even knowing like, is this a legitimate boundary? When do I step in? When do I step out? All the things that come with that just were so hard and broke my heart time and time again because the last thing I ever wanted to do was have that
level of a boundary relationship with the son who I love so much.
Alex (21:28.075)
Yeah, I wonder if you could just say a little bit more about it feeling like betrayal that stepping back felt like betrayal. Like who did you feel like you were betraying? Let's just be really clear.
Brenda (21:40.654)
You mean like in terms of my son or yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course because a mother is supposed to stand with her child and at all costs I should be there and I should be the one that has hope and I should be the one that's rallying at his side and in fact, you know that is attention in and of itself in your heart because in your heart you can keep that posture of like I am for you. I am on my knees begging God to save you and redeem you and keep you and all those things but in practice.
Alex (21:43.945)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (21:48.552)
Right.
Brenda (22:08.649)
I have to make some decisions because you are a hurtful, harmful person to our family, to me. What you bring into our family is actually dangerous and unloving. And by actually not establishing boundaries, I am winking in essence and saying, it's okay for you to be less than who God created you to be.
where by actually having some boundaries we were saying, you know what, it's not okay for you to treat us this way. It's not okay for you to act that way because God has better for you and we're not going to rescue you from the consequences of the things you've chosen because we are hopeful that these will actually serve to be the discipline from the Lord that will bring you back.
Alex (22:50.325)
Yeah, I think it's just really helpful you put words to how that felt like betraying him and why, how you had to work through that in order to be able to set the boundaries, like how you had to think about the image bearing in yourself and your family members and in him. And you said something else that I think we have to talk about when we talk about boundaries. You said, it broke my heart over and over again. And this is where the grief part comes in. And this is often where I
boundaries, like people understanding even they can get to an intellectual logical understanding that boundaries is the wise thing to do in the relationship but but because they don't want to enter into the grief that boundaries bring they will pull back from setting those boundaries and I think first we have to deal with the grief of the loss of relationship with the
Brenda (23:42.231)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (23:50.018)
Hmm.
Alex (23:50.141)
person because and the grief of our expectation for what we longed for the relationship to be. And so there's a lot of grief within us, just within our own hearts. If we're going to be able to clearly communicate boundaries, if we're going to be able to lovingly communicate boundaries, because what I see people do is not deal with their grief and then boundaries come off as harshness.
Brenda (23:58.861)
Hmm.
Brenda (24:16.907)
Well, I agree and you make such a good point because I think in my case, I started very much off as the doormat, allowing a lot of things that shouldn't have been allowed and accepting and hoping, you know, in just ridiculous ways sometimes. as the pain grew greater, then I became a fortress. When I didn't deal with the pain, right? Because all I needed then was to self-protect. I have to protect my heart. I have to protect my family. It all becomes about me and the protection that I can give to everybody around me. And at the end of the
Alex (24:34.687)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (24:40.573)
Right?
Brenda (24:47.031)
I mean in a situation like that, there is no way I could protect my heart. Only God could protect my heart. And I was very limited even on, yes, I might put physical boundaries to protect family members, but I couldn't protect their hearts either. Only Jesus could do that. So sometimes the pendulum has to swing almost to the other side and then I, I mean it is the journey in which I learned how to deeply deeply grieve. And it was in that grief that I was able to hold that tension and that kept my heart soft. It kept me knowing when
Alex (24:52.158)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (25:00.062)
Yeah.
Alex (25:15.625)
Yeah.
Brenda (25:16.791)
it was okay to step in because in a long journey like that when you're having to really look at how boundary to be, you can't just be a fortress. Like there has to be some olive branches extended. There has to be some conversations in between. There has to be some testing the waters. Can he come back in? You know, those sort of things. So in grieving, you just have that continual surrender, trust, obedience, surrender, trust, obedience. And in doing that, I think your heart stays
Alex (25:41.768)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (25:46.823)
in a place where Jesus can really bring true comfort and deep comfort. And when you get to the other side, which by God's grace we have, there's not all of this collateral damage. Like our son will actually look on and say, it was good for you. He was in other relationships that continued to be very enabling and damaging. And, you know, those relationships don't exist anymore. So now he can look back and say, I'm so thankful because I would have ruined, I would have completely ruined the relationship with my family.
Alex (25:50.686)
Yeah.
Alex (26:00.787)
Yeah.
Alex (26:08.745)
Right.
Brenda (26:16.586)
I've been allowed just to come in and do whatever I want to and act however I wanted to and during that season. So it actually was a protection for the relationship, the longer-term relationship. Uh-huh.
Alex (26:28.082)
Right, the future. Mm-hmm, yeah. And I want to touch back on what you said about the pendulum swinging, because if we're talking to people who are having to set boundaries in their own lives, or they're sitting with people who are trying to learn how to set boundaries, I just want to normalize that the pendulum is going to swing. And...
Brenda (26:51.2)
Yeah, yeah.
Alex (26:53.732)
And not to be too judgmental of ourselves or of other people when that happens because I see people do that where there's no boundary, no boundary, no boundary, all the boundaries, you know. And I just want to encourage you, you like, will come back. It will become more organic. It will become more...
Brenda (27:03.636)
Yep, yep.
Alex (27:12.426)
in step with the spirit, it will become more spirit sensitive. But sometimes, sometimes the pendulum has to swing for somebody to learn how to set a boundary. And so it's just kind of a part of the process. So don't go too hard on yourself. Don't go too hard on other people. then,
Brenda (27:14.325)
Yep.
Yes.
Brenda (27:24.684)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brenda (27:31.276)
Yeah, and I...
I was just going to add one other thing to that too. I think we have to be really careful how we even judge people in that pendulum swing because there are times that somebody looking on would have said you're being a doormat. But Paul and I had really, really prayed about a particular thing and we did it or we gave it or whatever. And we knew that it wasn't because we were fearful or being manipulated. Like it was spirit led. At the same time, we had people look on and be like, wow, that seems harsh. And we're like, you don't know what's been going on the last 10 years and, why we are
Alex (27:41.586)
Yes.
Alex (27:56.488)
Yes.
Brenda (28:02.062)
at this point having to make this very critical and difficult decision. and even I would say the trajectory of growth is not so much like you're a doormat and then you become a fortress or your fortress become a doormat. I mean, it kind of swings back and forth as you go and you nailed it when you said, I I mean, I just clung to God's word. I clung to prayer and direction from the Holy Spirit. I looked for what God was doing in Providence, you know, looking at what my son was doing, looking at our family, of course.
Alex (28:12.913)
No.
Brenda (28:32.032)
My husband was a tremendous counselor for me in that season, along with very close and dear friends who understood and who had walked a lot of that journey with me to really understand what was going on and also love my son. So, you know, there's just there.
Alex (28:46.122)
you
Brenda (28:49.814)
We have to be really, really careful and have patience, receive the patience of the Lord for ourselves, be patient with other people. Because I think what makes it so grievous is when it's a long journey, it's...
I think just the longer the journey for any of suffering story, right? The harder it is. Like sometimes the worst trials are not the shorter, hard trials. They're just the ones that just keep going on and on and on. And those just require so much going back and praying and thinking and counsel and going back again and going back again and going back again. And it's almost a daily, you know, going back and it can become very wearisome.
Alex (29:09.224)
Right.
Alex (29:27.497)
Yes.
Yeah, and I think that it kind of brings me to the other part of grief that boundaries bring. I mean, I think we could probably do five podcasts just on grief and boundaries because I think there's so much here of how grief enters into the process of setting and holding and letting go of boundaries. But one of the things I see is that people come, when they come into an understanding that boundaries are necessary for the honoring the image bearing
themselves and the other person, they almost get excited that boundaries are going to be the thing that changes the relationship or changes the person and hope enters back in again. And when hope enters and oftentimes we know that grief follows because it doesn't have none of the none of the change in relationship happens quickly. And so we I see people think, okay, this is the answer. This is what I have never done before. So this is going to be the thing that
Brenda (30:09.248)
Hmm. Hmm.
Brenda (30:15.02)
Bye.
Brenda (30:20.651)
Right.
Brenda (30:24.67)
Yep, yep.
Brenda (30:29.674)
Yep.
Alex (30:30.376)
allows this relationship, whatever the conflict is, to resolve. And it doesn't happen that way. And so it takes you right back to the grief again.
Brenda (30:39.628)
That's right. Yeah, because I mean, anytime hope is built up, then we have disappointment is going to follow. And that can be a cycle that goes on for a long time with difficult people and maybe a cycle that we will never fully see and resolved.
Alex (30:44.681)
Yes.
Alex (30:56.552)
Right.
Brenda (30:57.318)
And I think, you know, goes back to this idea of it being worshiped because if we're doing it to honor and glorify the Lord, then yes, we will still be disappointed in the fact that there aren't results, but we're not doing it for results and outcome. We're doing it as an act of worship because this is what God has called us. And God, whether or not the other person ever changes, God changed me way before God changed my son.
Alex (31:20.304)
Yes. Yes.
Brenda (31:23.656)
In all of my relationships, how I learned to understand who I was, how I learned to relate to other people based on who God said they were, all of my relationships are so much healthier. I am such a, so much more rooted in my identity as an image bearer and as a child of God than I was before. And I would say as a direct result of having to wrestle with this so much.
you
Alex (31:54.64)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I think just to kind of close up the thoughts on grief is just to say that when not if when grief comes in the process of setting boundaries, you're it doesn't mean you're doing something wrong because I think that's how we naturally react when grief comes into any equation. We immediately think I must be doing something wrong because this hurts too much.
Brenda (32:10.092)
That's right.
Brenda (32:20.246)
Right.
Alex (32:20.877)
And the reality is that boundaries are going to hurt and that doesn't mean you're doing something wrong. It means that there's loss and sadness and even some anger and this is not the way it's supposed to be. And stay the course. Keep praying, keep asking wise counselors, keep remembering what it means to honor the image bearing in yourself and others.
Brenda (32:30.656)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (32:46.442)
Yeah, that's so good. And, you know...
The great part is, is we can grow. There's hope for growth. is hope for, there is hope that perhaps, we have seen a number of times where people begin to establish and maintain godly boundaries where change does occur. Even if the person, the person doesn't change, sometimes just at least the behavior changes, right? Making it more tolerable or bearable to interact with them or to do life with them. So we talked about the gospel way that we have these two
Alex (32:51.753)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (33:05.672)
Yes.
Brenda (33:19.476)
we can fall in, we can either be the doormat or we can be the fortress. And so, let's just close our time talking about what the gospel way looks like for each of these areas. And first of all, when it comes to dignity, we can rest in the worth that God gives us, right? I don't have to shrink back or demand recognition. My dignity is secure, completely secure, because what God says about me is true.
Alex (33:35.037)
Hmm.
Alex (33:44.458)
And then for agency, because we have the Holy Spirit living in us, we talked about this being a spirit dependent, we can learn to discern the difference between bearing one another's burdens and carrying our own. And that's a hard thing to discern, but that also means that we can use our God given agency to take responsibility for what God has given me to do and also say no to what God has said that it is not mine to carry.
Brenda (34:13.216)
Yep. In purpose, I can honor God's purpose for my life by keeping his priorities first. Yet, I don't have to be rigid, right? I can stay responsive and willing again to make spirit-led sacrifice for those I love. And that is just what it looks like to live in relationship.
Alex (34:22.237)
Yeah.
Alex (34:31.657)
And the last one just knowing our God-given limitations that we can honor those God-given limitations even as we seek to give generously and that means I can plan for rest, I can be willing to say no when I need to steward my physical or emotional well-being and I can recognize that I'm a finite creature.
Brenda (34:56.554)
Yeah, well, excellent Alex. I think this is all we've got for this episode. That's it. I think this is I you know I say this every season we do, but it's just true because you and I are working out and living out so much of this. It's not. It's not like we come up with these topics and we have all the answers and we've done everything right. Like this is real time for us.
Alex (35:00.622)
Hehehehehe
Alex (35:17.737)
Let's do a podcast on something we're really good at.
Brenda (35:20.428)
Right? And I think it's been so sweet. I feel like there's so much discovery for us and richness for us in our personal lives, in our counseling lives, in our sphere of influence. And so I really hope that this episode of the season is resonating with our listeners in the same way. So we would love to hear your feedback. You can join our conversational counseling group on Facebook or Instagram. And yeah, let us know what you're hearing. Let us know what
Alex (35:27.484)
Hmm.
Brenda (35:50.442)
saying yes to, let us know what you're saying no to, give us some other ways of thinking or talking about this topic. We'd love to hear from you and who knows we may end up adding another podcast based on something you say.
Alex (36:02.089)
I'd love that. And then you mentioned at the beginning of the podcast that we started something called the Carewell Collective. And if you would want to consider joining us in that and supporting the podcast with a monthly gift, you can donate at our website, which is conversationalcounseling.com.
Brenda (36:21.238)
Great, thanks Alex, we'll see you next time.