Season 12 Ep.6 / Boundaries: Your Questions Answered
Alex (00:08.43)
So we're back on our Seasons on Boundaries and this is our last episode and so today we thought we would...
answer the honest questions people have about boundaries. And these are just questions that we've heard many, many times and we've probably asked them ourselves. And so I don't think we're going to exhaust the list of questions that there are about boundaries today, but we're certainly going to try to hit the most common ones. And I think the first two are probably the top two questions that I hear. The first one being, it loving or unselfish or is it loving or
Brenda (00:30.335)
Mm-mm.
Brenda (00:45.865)
I'm loving.
Alex (00:45.936)
Is it unloving or selfish to set a boundary? I don't know.
Brenda (00:51.979)
Spit it out, Alex. There we go. Well, I mean, this is definitely one of these questions that I have come back to over and over again, even recently. Like, am I being loving or am I being selfish? And it's not necessarily a bad question to ask, but...
We've been stating throughout this podcast that boundaries are, it's all about love. And Jesus set boundaries and he was neither unloving nor was he selfish. But I think what happens is that it feels, it feels unloving and selfish as a Christian. And let me just say, there's a double curse if you're a Christian southerner. Because if you're raised in the South, you're taught to be sweet and...
Alex (01:25.134)
Yeah, that's exactly right.
Alex (01:31.308)
Hahaha
you
You are supposed to be sweet. Wait, there's a triple curse if you're a Christian Southern woman.
Brenda (01:38.707)
And you don't tell people no, right? And so it just sets up this weird.
Brenda (01:47.596)
That's my goodness, you're right. It just hits the check mark on all the three worst scenarios. Well, and I think the other thing that's really hard Alex is that the scriptures get misused, misinterpreted and even weaponized by other people because if we look at the scriptures at whole we think what is the Bible about? It's about love. So it's about themes of sacrifice and you know sacrificing yourself and humility and loving your enemies and serving others even when they treat you poorly.
Alex (01:53.154)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (02:04.268)
Yes.
Brenda (02:17.639)
And so it could just feel like we can't even begin to assert ourselves in any way. We can't set limits because this is going to come across as being very un-Christ-like. And I don't know, I know you've counseled people like this too. It is really, really hard to counsel and talk with someone who is convinced that every and any boundary is unloving. And they're, gosh, it's just, it's so hard because trying to argue from that perspective of like,
no, no, no, this is loving. Well, it doesn't seem like loving, and Jesus said this, this, and this, and when you start pulling those scriptures out of context, and you don't look at the whole council of God, it really looks like they have an argument. And if they're southern, even more so. And a woman.
Alex (02:57.612)
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. So, you know, this is why I love the grand narrative so much because I think it always helps us to come back and take that big picture view of God and his story. And I think what we see from the opening pages of the Bible is we see God setting boundaries day and night, light and dark. don't think about these as boundaries. We see God setting limits on us with limiting our work by giving us rest. And so I think we also
them see a whole host of unboundaried people all through the pages of Scripture and how they have not obeyed God's limitation, God's limits on them, God's limits on the way they treat other people and how that just goes wrong time and time again. And so again, that's why I love the grand narrative because people were going to say to you the word boundary is not in the Bible.
Brenda (03:58.348)
Mm-hmm, that's right. That's right.
Alex (04:00.366)
Yes, but it's all over the pages of the Bible and point of fact the word Trinity is not in the Bible and yet of course we see the Trinity all throughout the Bible. So I think we do see boundaries throughout the Bible and I think we see like you said Jesus in the flesh coming and setting boundaries and showing us what it looks like to be boundaried and loving. And I also think here that we have to talk about motivation for boundaries. Certainly
Brenda (04:09.899)
That's right.
Alex (04:30.376)
boundary setting can be selfish. We have been with people, as we talked about in our last episode, who are fortresses, who are going to self-protect at all costs, who are not going to let people in, they are not going to sacrifice, and they become boundaries because they are selfish. That is true, but it doesn't have to be, and we would argue that boundaries done wisely and done well are loving and not selfish.
Brenda (04:32.682)
Yep.
Brenda (04:57.883)
Mm-hmm and honestly the doormats can even be selfish and unloving because what happens is is that the people pleaser Looks like they're doing all the nice and loving things for the right reasons, but a lot of times they're also looking to self-protect They're just doing it in really nice way. They don't want to upset people. They don't want to disappoint people There's a big motivation of fear when we do our podcast on the fear of man I talked about kind of my own story and how Coming around to realizing that so much of the people pleasing was being afraid for me. It wasn't really about loving God
Alex (05:02.264)
True.
Alex (05:20.941)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (05:26.423)
Right.
Brenda (05:27.787)
loving my neighbor. So we can get caught in that trap on both sides.
Alex (05:32.224)
And I think that that is where wise counseling really comes in to be able to tease out the motivations of our own hearts and to be able to certainly not that we're going to have ever a perfect motivations, but to be able to recognize where fear comes to play, where grief comes to play and being able to talk that through I think is very helpful so that we can wisely implement boundaries and not proceed in fear and not think that we're displeased
the Lord when we do it.
Brenda (06:03.883)
That's right. All right, question number two, Alex, if I forgive someone, does that mean I must restore the relationship and have no boundaries? They are.
Alex (06:10.964)
Yeah, these are the top two, aren't they? The top two questions. And this is such a complex question, I think, because we are obviously commanded to forgive.
Brenda (06:22.879)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and I think that idea of even the verse that says forgiving 70 times 7, I hear people like, wait, I shouldn't have any boundaries. I should just welcome people back every single time with open arms, you know, with no boundaries whatsoever. And I go back to our whole season we did on forgiveness, which I would really encourage people to listen to if they haven't and they're struggling with boundaries, because we said then in those podcasts in that season that boundaries is simply releasing somebody from the debt they actually
Alex (06:28.856)
huh.
Brenda (06:53.433)
owe you, saying I'm not going to repay you for the wrong you've done. And it's a way to protect our own heart against bitterness, resentment, and vengeance. So, if you're confused about forgiveness and trust and this place that boundaries, I think going back and listening to that podcast would be really good.
Alex (06:54.413)
Right?
Alex (07:02.647)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (07:10.836)
I get back to that so often and I think it's such a good starting place to clarify what forgiveness actually is. We're not going to take revenge. We're not going to pay back and recognize that's what's commanded of us, but that those steps of reconciliation and full restoration are not commanded and that they're often conditional on the other person's behavior. So reconciliation and restoration that that becomes two way street.
Brenda (07:34.091)
That's right.
Brenda (07:40.651)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (07:40.763)
And is something we have to do and we do that in our heart before the Lord. But reconciliation and restoration depend on the other person's behavior. And reconciliation does not mean full access to me is granted again. It can mean a new rhythm and new expectations. And then with full restoration, which is where trust is reestablished, means that that can really, that trust can only truly be reestablished when we see that the other person has made a commitment
to new actions in repentance for the way that they have treated others unlovingly. And so we're gonna be watching and that's gonna take time. Often that unfolds over time. We're gonna watch to see if they're owning the harm that they've done, if they're respecting their, your limits and they're willing to adjust. And so I would even argue here that boundaries are actually a necessary part of the restoration process.
Brenda (08:28.427)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (08:39.657)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (08:40.636)
because it does show the other person what we said like this is the way back into relationship with me. This is the gate, this is the fence, but this is the gate you can walk through to come back into relationship and that the boundaries actually establish a place for trust to be rebuilt.
Brenda (08:57.739)
Yeah, absolutely. All right, question number three.
Aren't Christians supposed to be self-sacrificing like Jesus? And I go back to my first example of the woman who could not set boundaries because of all the scriptures and this is the person she keeps pointing to, is that Jesus died on the cross and Jesus laid down his life and Jesus, and we're supposed to be like Jesus and model our lives after Jesus. How could I possibly tell my mother no, my husband no, my children no?
Alex (09:01.25)
Thank
No.
Brenda (09:27.955)
Answer the question, Alex.
Alex (09:28.955)
Mmm.
Well, what I usually say first and foremost, you're not Jesus. And he was sent on a very specific mission and all of those things he did voluntarily not because he was an unboundary person. He did those as an act of love where he voluntarily laid down his life. He laid down his dignity when he became a baby. He laid down his agency when he surrendered his will to the Father.
Brenda (09:33.547)
There you go, that's the best answer.
Alex (10:00.272)
He laid down, you could argue his purpose so to speak, instead of being viewed as the perfect son of God, he chose to become the sin and a curse for us. And he even recognized his limitations in his human fleshly body when he walked away from the crowds to rest and pray and then ultimately laid down his life to suffer and die. And so I think what we see in Jesus is a person who lived bound to read and then voluntarily
entered into the places of self-sacrifice. Yeah.
Brenda (10:30.451)
Yep.
Yeah, for a very specific purpose, for the salvation. And like you said, none of us is Jesus, we're not saving anybody.
Alex (10:40.46)
Yeah.
And I think when we use that, I think it is a really good indicator that we have taken on too much in the life of another person. And I hate the term Messiah complex. I think because it's been said to me and about me too many times and touches something in me. But I have to recognize that there have been many times when that's been true and we cannot be somebody else's savior. And so often when we are living
Brenda (10:52.17)
Brenda (11:06.078)
Yep.
Alex (11:11.29)
living unboundaried, we are living in a way that is trying to be something we can't. And the next place I usually take the conversation is how are you getting in the way of this person really seeing Jesus because they are looking to you.
Brenda (11:23.102)
Hmm. That's right. That's right. It's a great question.
Alright, number four. What if the other person gets upset when I set a boundary? And this is the death of a people pleaser. I mean, it's like, wait, I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings or make anybody mad. And part of living a life that is faithful to Christ means that we will suffer for righteousness sake, right? That we're going to make decisions and we're going to hold to our worship, loving, trusting, obeying God in a way
Alex (11:37.416)
Yeah.
Alex (11:52.577)
Yeah.
Brenda (12:00.236)
that other people are not gonna agree with us. It's gonna make them angry, it's gonna disappoint them, it might even wound them. And I think we just need to remember that their emotional reaction is not necessarily an indication that we've done something wrong.
Alex (12:07.18)
Yes.
Ahem.
Alex (12:15.436)
Yes.
Brenda (12:15.954)
So I think if somebody gets really upset, what we might consider is their reaction might be data, not a reason to abandon the boundaries we've set inside in place and the clarity of which we're trying to bring to the relationship. And, you know, I think we could just say that healthy people respect boundaries and unhealthy people tend to resist them. Or I want to say, I don't want to be so general in saying that, but we might be in unhealthy places or
Alex (12:22.156)
Yes.
Brenda (12:45.898)
certain relationships where we're unhealthy. And I think that this is something again, a data point that we need to consider.
Alex (12:52.438)
Yeah, because I don't know if we've said this often enough in these this podcast series on boundaries that boundaries reveal what's true in a relationship. And I think that we need to leave a space for people to be upset, to have their own experience of grief when we've set a boundary. But I think a boundary does give us a place to step back and take a view of where the relationship is and to recognize that if manipulate
gets ramped up if you know other forms of unhealthy behaviors condescension and name-calling control all these things come like the boundary did not create that in the relationship it just revealed it
Brenda (13:30.36)
Control.
Brenda (13:38.298)
Absolutely. So exposing. Yep. All right. Question number five, Alex. We'll pass this one to you. I'm giving you all the goodies. How do boundaries work with quote unquote the Bible verse honor your father and mother or the biblical command to honor your mother and father?
Alex (13:44.942)
This one is so hard
Alex (13:57.192)
So first of all, I want to say that
that Adam Young's done an entire podcast on this question and I think it's very good. And I think it's on the podcast series that's titled, to Be in Relationship with People Who've Harmed Us. And so he goes in depth in this, but just to go high level, I would just say that honoring our father and mother involves respect and truth and appropriate care. And I think we tend
to define honoring.
the way our parents define them. Basically, we think that honoring them is treating them the way that they want to be treated. And I don't think that's the honor that the Bible's talking about. And oftentimes, again, honor means respect and truth and appropriate care. It does not mean unlimited access or enabling sin or enduring harm. And so I think we have to be really careful of
Brenda (14:41.876)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (15:01.646)
selfish demands that get closed under the heading of you need to honor me.
Brenda (15:08.554)
That's good. We'll find out what that Adam Young series is and post it in the show notes so that people can find that as well. All right. Yeah, yeah.
Alex (15:17.526)
And let me say one more thing before we leave that one, because I think it's a big one.
I think it is easy to think of us enabling our children in behavior because we've been caretakers to them, right? And so that's an easy relationship to move into enabling. It's hard to know how as our children grow older to give them the responsibilities that we've often carried for them. I think what's hard is to recognize ways that we've enabled our parents because we don't think of that as an enabling relationship.
yet when we're talking about enabling, we're talking about a relationship where we tolerate or smile at or gloss over sinful behavior. And we can do that with our parents in the name of keeping the peace. And I think it is much harder to see when we look a generation up than when we look a generation down. And we call that honoring a lot of times again, because it does keep the peace, but it's actually not honoring behavior.
Brenda (16:08.551)
yeah.
Brenda (16:20.968)
Yeah, and I think what complicates it further, it's a much longer deep-seated pattern of relating. This has been going on for years, spoken and unspoken.
Alex (16:26.964)
Yes, I'm so glad you said that. So, yes. And it's usually in the fabric of the family, not just in the way you relate to your parents, but like you said, for generations, it is the fabric. And so it can be really hard to be the person that says, we're not gonna do this this way anymore.
Brenda (16:36.318)
That's right.
Yep. Yep.
Brenda (16:45.672)
Yeah, yes it can be. All right, number six is can I set boundaries with a spouse?
Alex (16:51.918)
This is a little bit easier, let's be honest. So I think where this question comes from is a misunderstanding of the idea of the one flesh relationship that we think one flesh and we begin to...
we begin to forget that we exist as separate image bearers who are responsible before God for our choices. And so I think when people come with that question, it often comes out of a place of thinking like, well, we should be in lockstep and I should, it also comes out of a misunderstanding of the word submit in Ephesians five that submission would mean that we would do anything that our husbands would ask us to do. But I would say that boundaries are essential in marriage.
Brenda (17:41.987)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Alex (17:43.529)
Yeah, and the purpose of them is not to create distance. The purpose of them is not to, you know, have some, you know, sinful or selfish independence, but it is to cultivate safety and trust and truth to have a healthy independence so we can have a healthy interdependence.
Brenda (18:05.99)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think this area of marriage was actually harder for me than with my parents and partly because I came into marriage with the bent of being a doormat and Paul was a fortress And so whoo, yeah, it was a winning combination those first seven years But by the grace of God, thankfully, you know, we both begin to really mature and grow and now
Alex (18:11.618)
Mm.
Alex (18:17.214)
Uh-huh. A winning combination.
Brenda (18:30.61)
can relate to one another much more wisely and lovingly. And I would just say regardless of your views of your roles, the roles and responsibilities in marriage, which there are a lot of different views out there, God's design is for marriage to be governed by the limits of love He places on marriage. So this mutuality, the reciprocity, all of those things when we look to the scriptures. And our husbands were not only our spouse, before they are even our spouse,
they're really, they might be our brother in Christ, hopefully. They're a fellow image bearer for sure. And so, you know, I think that...
think is we're relating to them. If we start kind of isolating, we relate to them only as a spouse, we kind of miss the wholeness of the role and responsibility we have in one another's life. In other words, it'll take us out of Ephesians five and actually open us to a Genesis to Revelation anchored marriage, the grand narrative, right? Which is so much more beautiful to be anchored in the whole of scripture than even just to take one part of scripture. As beautiful as Ephesians five is, it has been very twisted in a lot of ways.
Alex (19:27.576)
Yeah.
Alex (19:39.864)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (19:40.486)
And I think particularly in this area of not allowing personhood, of skewing a woman or a husband's identity, I would say particularly a woman's identity, which her dignity, her purpose, her agency, her limits. And so to your point, like they're needed. And where there are two people who are seeking to love like Christ, then you don't have to have a Like boundaries are naturally gonna be set. Again, love sets the boundaries. If I'm loving my husband well, then that love is
Alex (19:54.798)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (20:10.58)
setting and holding such beautiful boundaries and it's going to produce a beautiful marriage.
Alex (20:15.296)
So I was trying to think of an example so we don't make this too big in people's minds because I think we can think these could be like really big relationship altering things and sometimes they will be if there's really unhealthy or abusive behavior going on. But in day-to-day marriage where there's not abuse, would say we had a group of, we quarterly have a group of young
Brenda (20:20.263)
You
Brenda (20:32.382)
Right?
Alex (20:45.36)
people come to our house for dinner and our pastor Adam thinks it's fun to let the host couple be on the hot seat and he asks us questions and the topic of discussion one night at dinner at my house was
hobbies and extracurricular activities outside of marriage. And they started to just ask questions about, know, they're all in the season where they're early married, a lot of them have young children. And someone asked the question, like, what did that look like for you? And I started to laugh and I said, I don't really think you want to ask us that question because when we first had children, we had, you know, two under two and a half and Mason was
in the Army Reserve, so he was gone one weekend a month. Another weekend, he was the deacon on duty, so he was gone almost all day Sunday, and he worked 12 hours a day during the week, and so there was like a two week period where he worked all week, Army Reserve worked all week, and sometimes he would go be the deacon at church on Sunday, and he came home, I think one week after that, and he told me, I'm gonna be playing golf next Saturday, and I was like, mm.
Brenda (21:58.58)
Oops.
Alex (22:03.23)
And the boundary I set at that point was, your family is now your hobby. You have no hobbies. You don't have time for hobbies. We need to see your face, right? And I told that story later.
I told that story to the group and later I felt really bad. I was like, I hope they don't misinterpret that. But the reality was that was true. Like he needed a little reorientation to the responsibilities of being a dad and the fact that we really, his children needed to see his face and it was a boundary, right? It was me saying this can't happen right now. There'll be another season where you can play golf, which by the way happened last week. He said, I think I want to play golf again. I was like, and I could cheer that like I'm excited.
Like, let's get you golf clubs for Christmas and where do you want to play? But that season was not the season for him to be playing golf.
Brenda (22:54.633)
Good point. think that's a great scenario that we can all relate to for sure, Alex. Well, the seventh question is setting boundaries with adult children. Or how do I set boundaries or is it okay to set boundaries?
I think a lot of times as moms we struggle to set or either to set our own boundaries or to respect our children's boundaries because we are clamoring for relationship and emotional connection and still having all this influence and input. Sometimes we do that by giving unsolicited advice or you know trying to rescue them or trying to control good outcomes or for me it's even controlling their relationship dynamics within the family or you know within the
Alex (23:21.418)
Yes.
Alex (23:38.998)
Within them. Yes.
Brenda (23:41.382)
themselves. And in our last podcast, I spoke at we spoke about the grief and all that came with our son who had addiction issues and setting boundaries and the difficulties. But to come to maybe just a more everyday example is is even some of the unspoken boundaries I have with my daughter who has two littles and pregnant with her third and lives a mile from me. It could be really easy for me. I want to say yes every time she calls. I want to be at her beckon call. But I have other responses.
Alex (24:02.21)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (24:11.285)
Responsibilities I have other purpose than just to be the grandmother to her children. And so I think that's hard though I don't want to disappoint her. I don't want to say no. I don't want to lose connection I'm what if I lose relationship? What if she thinks I'm being selfish and ungodly? What if I'm not being the sweet southern grandma? I'm supposed to be you know, all of those things and so I think that can make it hard but I think we have to treat our children like adults and That can be challenging because we it's hard to to
Alex (24:21.271)
Hmm.
Alex (24:26.7)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (24:39.308)
Mm-mm.
Brenda (24:41.195)
move from the mindset that this is a child under my direction and under my authority in my home to this is an autonomous individual who has their own personhood and is making their own decisions in their own families. So I think it's really, really important that we look at our children and say, I value their dignity?
Alex (24:59.48)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (25:00.493)
Am I honoring their agency, their ability to make choices? Am I supporting the purposes that God has for them without interfering, interrupting? And then do I understand their limits because they have seasons too. My daughter can't come Thanksgiving and be in the kitchen with me the whole time. She's chasing the littles the whole time, you know, I'm trying to keep them out of the kitchen, you know. So I just think this, this is a whole, I mean, all of these relationship dynamics and I think what we're seeing is that there
Alex (25:17.292)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brenda (25:30.347)
There are so many opportunities where, whether they're spoken or unspoken, in all of our relationships that we're just having to make good wisdom calls for ourselves, for other people, and all hopefully with the, you know, with really wanting to honor the Lord in all of those.
Alex (25:48.736)
Yeah, as you're talking, I was remembering early in our counseling days, I'm sure you got it too, is that little diagram of like my responsibilities and my concerns. And when we get to this place of adult children, I talk to a lot of people about what are my responsibilities, the places where God's called me to act, and I can write those down in there, and what are my concerns. And it is so hard to put our adult children's lives and choices and grandchildren into
Brenda (26:08.295)
Yep. Yep.
Alex (26:18.64)
concern. It sounds like the weakest, you know, word to describe how much we love them, how strongly we feel about their lives and what we want for them. And to call it a concern that I really have to step back and only pray for and can't act in is, there's grief. Here we come to grief again. But I think it's such a clarifying, it's such a simple exercise, it's such a clarifying exercise. And I find myself in each season of my children's
Brenda (26:28.265)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (26:48.63)
adult lives kind of reorienting to that as more concerns fill that outer circle and I have to re-clarify what are my responsibilities.
Brenda (26:55.551)
Yes
Brenda (26:59.837)
Yeah, think exposing and clarifying are two good words in that because I think that exercise sometimes exposes, I don't know what my responsibility, my concerns are. That's a problem. You know, then you need to really evaluate, get some help and then just the clarity and not only for yourself, but you the flip side of that is there are adult children who are really pressing in on their parents to, know, whether it's caring for their children, whether it's you, you you have a lot of money. Why can't you help me? You have a lot of time. I want more of you. I have expectations.
Alex (27:07.362)
Mm-hmm, right.
Alex (27:25.89)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (27:29.861)
of how you should do holidays or you know, whatever it might be. And so I think clarifying those also helps you not be manipulated, not feel guilted into things, not feel controlled, and then ultimately not feel resentful, you know, as well. So, all right, we got to keep moving. What if someone sets an unreasonable boundary against me even though I've been trying to relate very lovingly and wisely to them?
Alex (27:40.524)
Hmm.
Alex (27:44.193)
Right?
Alex (27:56.719)
Yeah, I think this is a hard one. And I've had more and more conversations about this lately about boundaries that are set and particularly unreasonable boundaries, no contact or extremely little contact over issues that don't really feel like major relational issues. I think you and I have talked about like political views or, you know, things that should differences that should be able to be honored within the relationship.
Brenda (28:02.185)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (28:26.672)
are becoming places where people set boundaries and have no contact with somebody. I think we need recognize that sometimes people are motivated by fear or control, bitterness, like they're gonna be unhealthy motivations for setting boundaries and sometimes people are foolish and even evil in the way that they yield boundaries. They weaponize this idea of boundaries and regardless of what the relationship is and we want to just acknowledge how painful it is.
Brenda (28:29.064)
Yep.
Alex (28:56.652)
when we're judged to be unsafe people.
Brenda (29:00.073)
Hmm.
Alex (29:00.808)
particularly when we feel like it's completely unfounded and it's painful when people withdraw from relationship from us and a lot of times I think when there are unreasonable boundaries there's a lot of confusion as to why those boundaries are being set. don't really understand what we did or what made us feel unsafe or like I said it doesn't feel like an issue that feels big enough or unhealthy enough
that it would cause a boundary to that level.
Brenda (29:34.482)
Yeah, I was recently speaking with a woman who had not talked with her daughter in a decade, had not seen her children. She had reached out wanting an explanation. She'd offered, you know, countless, I'll go to counseling with you. What have I done? And there's just, there's no explanation. The answer was, you know what you've done.
Alex (29:41.068)
Alex (29:54.22)
Yeah.
Brenda (29:54.674)
and no willingness to sit at the table and have a conversation. sometimes in these situations, we also have to recognize, like in this situation, the daughter has boundaries around everybody, everybody in the family, the relationships are damaged. She's healthy, she has relationships with everybody but this particular person.
The daughter on the other hand doesn't have relationships with anybody in the family because she has just built a fortress Completely around herself and and really without no reason, you know to do so So and I think this is where we just come back to our idea of grieving and there's just so much grief in that like what do do you? continue to You know, you have to try to honor those boundaries At some level because you're trying to build trust, right?
Alex (30:20.888)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (30:40.029)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (30:44.775)
You can make your desires known, you don't have, you can't make demands. You don't have any authority or power. You certainly can ask for, you know, the deeper reason behind because, you know, typically it's multi-layered and there could be a lot there. But at the end of the day, think grieving, prayer, in this situation, I just said, your grandchildren aren't always going to be minors. They're going to grow up and you'll have access to them and maybe writing prayers and letters to them that you can give to them one day or finding
Alex (30:48.759)
No.
Alex (31:07.692)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (31:14.819)
other way to acknowledge the years that have been lost and continuing every once in while to hold out that olive branch reaching back out to the daughter. miss you. I love you. I'm still here if you, you know, if you're willing. But just, what grief. What grief is felt. And I just think the whole idea of being misjudged, it's just so hard anyhow. And this is, I mean, this is where too I think we have to really lean into the fact that Jesus understands, right, that he was completely
Alex (31:21.965)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
So much grief.
Alex (31:34.54)
and us.
Brenda (31:44.649)
misunderstood and misjudged and he knows that pain and that heartache and finding solace in the shared suffering we have with him.
Alex (31:49.121)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (31:54.743)
Yeah, that's really good. I think the next question goes along with that is what's the difference between a boundary and an ultimatum because I think oftentimes these unreasonable boundaries really come off more as ultimatums.
Brenda (32:07.657)
Yeah, one of the things I'd also like to put in our show notes, Malia, you'll have to remind me is there is a podcaster I listen to that does a lot on addiction and she talks about ultimatums, consequences and boundaries. And it was just, it was such a great little explanation. But a boundary is what I will do to steward myself. It's about letting the consequences get played out, right? And so the idea of consequence and boundaries can go together really nicely, but the ultimatum is what you must do.
Alex (32:20.11)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (32:29.89)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (32:37.611)
to avoid my consequence. And so it's really oriented toward the other person and the consequences as opposed to here's what's gonna happen in order for me to steward what God has given to me and you know what? There'll be consequences but you have a choice because this is not an ultimatum. You can choose to do something different but I can also choose to uphold what I've said and let those consequences fall.
Alex (32:56.419)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Alex (33:05.366)
Hmm, yeah, that is tough.
Brenda (33:09.971)
Alright, number 10, Alex the final one. How do I know if I'm being too boundaried or not boundaried enough?
Alex (33:16.574)
I think first of all we would say what we've been saying this whole season which is boundaries is just a particular area where I think we have to be very spirit-led we have to be very in step with the spirit and we have to recognize that there there's going to be organic quality to them that very rarely do I see people create boundaries and fix them forever and ever amen it just doesn't work well and
doesn't allow for the work of the spirit in my heart or the other person's heart. But we've kind of gone back to this paradigm of the fortress, the doormat or the gospel way of creating healthy boundaries. so the fortress questions are am I hiding? Am I self protecting? Am I unwilling? Yeah, am I ducking? Am I unwilling to sacrifice? And so I've built a fortress around myself. The doormat questions are am I overwhelmed?
Brenda (34:04.221)
Ducking.
Alex (34:16.544)
Am I resentful? Which resentment is always a good indicator that I have no boundaries and I've let people walk all over me. Am I living like I have no limits and like I have no choices in the matter and so I've become a doormat. And then the gospel way of thinking about boundaries is am I able to present, be clear, be present and loving without losing myself. And the other paradigm we've said is am I
to honor the Imago Day in the other person as well as in myself.
Brenda (34:52.051)
Yep, that's good.
Alright, Alex, that does it. We're going to close out our season on boundaries. Unfortunately, you know, this wasn't available this Thanksgiving and Christmas, but it will be available for the next ones coming up for people. And I know we always get a lot of questions, particularly around the holiday seasons, because there are so many difficult interactions within families and with friendships. So we just really hope that this series has been
Alex (35:08.959)
Right.
Brenda (35:24.263)
helpful. We hope maybe we've even framed it a little differently than you've heard it before. think going back to the Mago Dei and looking at personhood and those sort of issues, I think for me has been even more clarifying than just, you know, I'm going to slap some rules on somebody, you know. And I would just add that if you know someone who might benefit from this teaching, we want to encourage you to share it with them. But maybe even better than that, share it with them and offer
Alex (35:36.748)
Mm-hmm.
Exactly.
Brenda (35:54.193)
walk through it with them. Not only will it be a better help for them to actually apply the material and wrestle and pray and think in real life situations, it will help you remember the principles, apply the principles, live the principles, and will just make you a better,
friend and spouse and all the relationships in your own life and make you more equipped just to really be able to minister to those in your sphere of influence.
Alex (36:23.95)
And the last thing we'd say today is we create a lot of worksheets and resources to go along with these podcast seasons. And if you would like to gain access to them, just sign up for our email newsletter on our website, which is conversationalcounseling.com so you can get the free resources.