Season 13 Ep.1 / Marriage: Are You Missing the Bigger Story?
Brenda (00:01.77)
Well, hello Alex and welcome Adam to season 13 of conversational counseling and the title of this season is going to be Good Together, God's Redemptive Story in Marriage. And I'm really excited and thankful to have Adam, who's our dear friend and our pastor, join us in this conversation. But Alex, before we get going, I need you to share some very important news with us.
Alex Kocher (00:03.04)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (00:26.934)
I know. I feel like Brenda always has the news so I'm just so glad I the news. And the news is that I'm gonna be a grandmother.
Brenda (00:32.137)
Ha ha ha ha!
Brenda (00:39.37)
that.
awesome. Well, congratulations as you've heard me say it is the reward for all the hard years of parenting and there is nothing like it nothing better to have all the joy with none of the responsibility. So it's beautiful. We're so excited for you and for your family and I know your daughter has not even been married that long and so I'm thinking this is gonna be a great series for her because she's gonna have to do the crash course in marriage this first year and have a baby in this first year so it's gonna be a
Alex Kocher (00:46.153)
Hahaha!
Alex Kocher (00:51.764)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (01:00.426)
No.
Brenda (01:09.694)
but she's got a wonderful mother and mentor in you, so that's such a blessing. Well listen, after four years, Alex, we're finally taking a stab at the subject matter of marriage. And I have to say, if we were superstitious, we should be worried, because this is season 13.
Alex Kocher (01:20.178)
I know.
Alex Kocher (01:23.798)
I did not think about that. We're finally tackling it.
Brenda (01:27.974)
we're not superstitious, we're not going to consider this an unlucky number, an unlucky season, but there's another number I'd love to focus on and that is how many years of marriage experience do we have between us? So somebody's going to have to be really good at the math-ing. I'm not good at the math-ing, but I've got 35.
Alex Kocher (01:32.84)
Yes.
Alex Kocher (01:40.303)
great idea. Yeah.
I've got 32.
Brenda (01:48.554)
Alright, so that puts us at 67, is that right?
Alex Kocher (01:51.816)
Yes, what about Adam?
Adam Coppock (01:53.294)
We're at 18, closing in on 19.
Brenda (01:56.403)
gosh, I do not know how to add 67 to 18 or 19. Somebody else want to do that? I'm going to say that puts us like over 75 or you know way over 75 of them over 85 over. I mean, look right here right between the three of us. I mean, we are pushing 100 years of marriage experience and and I do want to say what a joy it's going to be to go through this series with you both because I know you personally and I've seen you walk out your marriage for many, many years and I know that both of your marriages have faced.
Alex Kocher (01:56.502)
Alex Kocher (02:05.194)
Yeah, 85. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brenda (02:26.196)
goodness and also hardship and a lot of redeeming themes as God has come in and done some rescuing work and some transformation work. And I know that your ultimate hope and what motivates you is your hope in Jesus. And so I think it's just going to be a beautiful opportunity. And this teaching really came out of a teaching that you guys did a conference that you did at your church that I listened to and said, that is so good, Alex.
Alex Kocher (02:29.333)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (02:56.34)
we need to get Adam on, you guys need to come because I think you're offering a really fresh perspective that I think is vital to see marriages more biblically and holistically. Because Alex, we've talked about some of the reasons like why we have avoided this topic and what would some of those be?
Alex Kocher (03:09.746)
Yeah. Well, one, I was completely weary of any teaching that was focused on men's and women's roles in marriage. It had kind of been drilled into us in early marriage and felt very restrictive and narrowing. And I got exasperated one year and said, I am never teaching this again.
Brenda (03:20.671)
Yeah.
Brenda (03:31.742)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Yeah, I would have to say Paul and I were talking last night just about some of our early marriage and pre-marital experience, and so much of it was focused around roles and responsibilities. And then this morning I was reading in Matthew, you know, where the Pharisees are always coming to Jesus, elevating the traditions of men over the commands of God, which are rooted in love. And I thought, wow, I think that's a lot of what happens with marriage material. And we went, even going back to, we got married in 90, but our pre-marital books that we used were from the 70s.
Alex Kocher (04:04.55)
Exactly. Yes. Mine too.
Brenda (04:05.162)
Yeah, so I mean, it's like, wow, are we ever in need? And I think even as a counselor and just a Christian wife, I think it's been really hard to find materials that are not either so narrowly focused on these specific places of marriage or some books that are well-meaning but very misguided. And then there's just a lot of bad teaching on marriage as well. What do you say, pastor? What do you say?
Alex Kocher (04:30.143)
a lot.
Adam Coppock (04:33.133)
I think one of the things that makes it really hard is people tend to get very dogmatic to say like, this is the absolute only way that you need to, first two years need to look like, or when you start having kids, this is the only way to do whatever. And I think people are looking for answers and they buy into somebody's super dogmatic view of it and then they get burned.
Alex Kocher (04:40.573)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Coppock (05:01.485)
It makes people really wary of other people given expression. then, hate to say it, but like we see the destruction of marriage not only in the outside world, but it's in the church. And so sometimes it's some of the people who are propagating some of the marriage material who end up in many ways just some harmful things that happen. And so people get really distrusting of marriage advice unless it's somebody that's flesh and blood that you have a relationship with.
and that you trust. And so I think it also makes people weary to teach it for that very reason as well.
Brenda (05:35.358)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Well, I'm gonna give a plug. That was so good. It's best to get your marriage counseling from people you actually know or marriage advice, whose marriages are actually expressing what God says is good in marriage, which we're gonna be talking about. And I think we have a lot of online resources. We have more resources today than we've ever had, good, bad, or whatever. But again, we are so much in this podcast about spiritual friendship and about mentorship and about walking and doing life together.
Adam Coppock (06:07.073)
And for me personally, you two and your marriages are that for me. Like, Brenda, I knew you from really when Steph and I first got married and we were at church together and Alex shortly after with your kids at school. so, you know, really of our 18 years, almost all of that has been able to witness your marriages and others here in Montgomery too. And that's been just a beautiful testimony because sometimes we're throwing our hands up.
Alex Kocher (06:12.373)
Hmm.
Alex Kocher (06:19.891)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Coppock (06:33.899)
go into people that we try to say, yeah, like, what can we do with this? like, you know, what are some of the things that y'all have experienced that we don't even know is a challenge down the road? So that's been a beautiful thing for me is, is y'all to be on this with y'all and y'all to be such indelible impacts in our marriage.
Brenda (06:50.025)
Hmm.
Well, that's just evidence of God's grace. And I liked what you said. It wasn't that you looked at us and said, their marriages are perfect. They're so good. They don't have any problems. Right. Exactly. Because that's not the whole story is we're going to learn. Like there's there's an ideal and none of us are hitting it. But there is also a way that God allows us to come back together in our marriages, even when there is hurt and harm and to find beauty and to find growth and to continue on with working or moving, working
Adam Coppock (06:59.037)
Not at
Alex Kocher (07:00.583)
It's alright.
Mm-mm.
Brenda (07:21.859)
moving toward the goal of good, so to speak. And I just have to say that, gosh, I would not go back to the beginning days of my marriage for anything. Those first seven years were so hard for Paul and I. But, you know, to see where we are at year 35 is so sweet. And it took a lot to get here. It took a lot of God's grace, a lot of forbearance, a lot of mercy. But anyway, this story is really truly beginning more and more to end well for us as we're approaching heaven. So hallelujah.
for that. Well, Alex, we're going to be using one of your favorite frameworks as we go through this series, The Grand Narrative, and we covered The Grand Narrative in Season 7.
Alex Kocher (08:03.081)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (08:03.655)
But now we're going to take this information and you have really done a great job of framing it in the context of marriage. And so let's jump off and let's start, I guess, a little bit with some explanation going back to an overview of what is the grand narrative. Adam, can you give that a pastoral but layman's explanation?
Adam Coppock (08:27.917)
Yeah, so just overall I think it's really helpful for us to consider the Scriptures as not just a collection of stories but really these pieces of one grand story, one meta story of what God has been doing since even before creation. You know, one of the things y'all love to talk about is the prologue that there has been an eternal God who it is in him that we have our creation but it also explains why is the world the way it is and what hope
for a world that is broken and not only saving us in the moment but saving us in a future restoration of all things. It's a cohesive way to really view all of the scriptures when at times we look at the Bible and we're like this is a really big book and what do do with maybe being in one particular area, one genre that maybe I'm not as comfortable with than others, but to not lose sight of this one overarching theme and story.
Brenda (09:22.441)
That's great, yeah. Well, Alex, take us through, if you will, we'd like to really break this down slowly, very simply to explain the parts of the story that Adam has described and what they represent.
Alex Kocher (09:37.918)
Yeah, so the
We say there are five parts to the story. Some people say there are four. We like to start with the prologue of the story because we think in the beginning God means that there is a story before we as his creation come onto the scene. And so the prologue sets up his lordship over all things and then creation, fall, redemption, and restoration. And in creation we're just talking about life, how life came to be, how we were made.
fall is where we see Adam and Eve fall into sin and rebellion against God and there's a lot of loss. We see the effects of the fall and most of the Old Testament or the entire Old Testament from then on is about the story of the fall and how we are seeking redemption, which is the next part of the story where we see that Jesus comes to redeem us back to God. We see he bridges us back into relationship.
back into right relationship with God and so it's the story of his love for us and then finally we look forward to the part of the story that hasn't yet to happen which is restoration where life the heavens and the earth will be restored to what God intended it to be and new life will come again and so we're caught we like to say in this place of the story called the now and the not yet where we're experiencing some of the effects of redemption but we're still
with the effects of the brokenness of the fall.
Brenda (11:13.533)
That's good. And I do need to point out that we have a nice alliteration going because I'm we are now known for our alliterations. One didn't quite fit because we had to put new, but I think this is really good. And we'll post this somewhere where people can see. But with Prologue, we're talking about Lordship with creation, life with fall loss, with redemption, love and the restoration, new life. And so that's just kind of an easy way to remember the parts of the story with, I think, one little word in front of it.
Alex Kocher (11:20.149)
Ha
Brenda (11:41.885)
But I think the question is why, you know, why would we look at marriage in the context of the grand narrative? Why would this be an important way? I don't think most people actually even think to approach marriage this way or think about it this way. I certainly know that until I understood the grand narrative, I never did. And then even after I understood the grand narrative, it took a long time for me to understand that it might have a place in the discussion of marriage. So, one of you speak to that about the pairing of the
the two.
Adam Coppock (12:13.517)
Yeah, I I think as we consider the Bible again as God's progressive plan of redemption in the person of Jesus Christ, we recognize that it gives all of life meaning, that it's not just our golden ticket to heaven, it's not just, you know, hyper-focused in one particular area, but actually it shows us really like not only our creation as people and some of those basic elements of our
you know, the very fiber of our beings, made for relationship, made to do things, made to enjoy this world, but also like that relational aspect, particularly in marriage of husband and wife, that it finds its roots in our creator God who has designed it, but also the one who, as sin has twisted it and perverted it, is the one who is redeeming it and gives, in some ways puts these pieces back together in a beautiful mosaic that is, you know,
glued together in a sense by the very blood of Christ. And so it gives not only all of life meaning but it shapes our view of how to approach suffering, how to approach our own letting each other down, our own sin against one another. It helps us understand that we're sinners and we wound each other and we are wounded by the other but that's not the end of our story. We also have the capacity for repair, to reconcile. It helps us
to root our story in God's story. Sometimes we get so hyper-focused on our moments that it feels like our worlds are caving in, it feels like there could be no hope. And when we are able to kind of zoom out, that's one of the things that's just so beautiful the way Alex did it when we taught it here at the church was this kind of zoom out, zoom in language. And when we can zoom out and see, wait a minute, like there's a sovereign God, he is in control, he is working a plan, he has been working a plan, even from eternity past.
and it is marching forward to Christ's glorious second return. But until then, there's going to be some days that aren't so good. And so what do we do with that? So it helps us find our story in His story. And then for me, think one thing we talked about was it helps prevent an isolated story. You know, as Alex kind of laid out the different chapters of it, sometimes what we tend to do is we blow right past prologue, right past creation, and we start with we're sinners.
Brenda (14:29.778)
Mm.
Adam Coppock (14:40.939)
you know, everything's broken, everything's awful, and so we start there and what happens is, and we'll talk about this a little bit more in a moment, but it gives a very truncated view, not only of the gospel, of each other as image bearers of God. And it also so hyper focuses on our suffering that we don't have capacity for hope. We don't have an eye to look for how could this be different? And so it actually
know, one thing we talk about, and I don't know who kind of originated this, but it's in my will house. I know I didn't create it, but it's this idea that sometimes we are more prone to live a two chapter gospel than a four chapter gospel. Meaning it's just fall and redemption and that's it. But really that creation, fall, redemption, and restoration gives a bigger view of the whole story and looking at creation helps us view the goodness of God's design. Restoration helps us see the hope of the future.
Alex Kocher (15:23.986)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Coppock (15:37.237)
and to see all that together is to see God's steady, good, loving, sovereign hand at work.
Alex Kocher (15:42.258)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (15:42.769)
Yeah, which takes us right back to prologue. think about just God being a wise, good, loving, it's not just the author, but he's a good and wise author that enters into creation. And Alex, I like what Adam's saying because to be honest with you, I mean, I think for years, you know, the text that I really focused on had been taught for marriage was just Ephesians five and Genesis one. And what I'm hearing Adam saying is what the grand narrative like marriage is touching so many, all the areas of our life. There's not an area in our life that isn't touched, but we get really hyperactive.
Alex Kocher (15:50.036)
Hmm.
Alex Kocher (16:03.293)
Right.
Brenda (16:12.772)
focus just on a few texts and make our view of marriage just about those particular passages that are only speaking to marriage. You know, we've got a few others, but yeah, talk a little bit about this idea of getting a bigger view of marriage through the grand narrative.
Alex Kocher (16:31.912)
Yeah, so one of the reasons we like the grand narrative is we say that it takes us away from this proof texting idea that we just look for, you know, just go in the Bible and find out what it says about wives and see what it says about husbands. And so that's going to take us to Ephesians five. And that's where you see books like love and respect and things like that, zeroing in on those very specific commands of like wives submit to your husband, husbands love your wives. And we think it just gives a really blunted narrow view of the way spouses should
Brenda (16:43.751)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (17:01.896)
interact. it's focused on this one thing of how Paul is talking about in a very specific context how he's talking to husbands and wives but we recognize if that's the inner circle like the bullseye of what he's saying about marriage we have to place that in the greater context of what does the Bible say about how we treat each other as brothers and sisters in Christ about how do we treat each other's fellow heirs how do we sharpen one another how do we understand mutual
Brenda (17:29.095)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (17:31.719)
mutual submission and one anothering. And then if we zoom out even more, how do we detreat each other's image bearers? What if your spouse is not a believer, not a fellow heir, then how do we, how are we called to treat one another as those who bear the stamp of God and reflect him on this earth? And so we think that that, what are, telescoping out? I don't know if that's even an expression. Coming out, seeing the big picture is a best,
Brenda (17:58.429)
Hehehe.
Alex Kocher (18:01.802)
paradigm for us to start with instead of going to a very specific verse and text and centering all our teaching right there.
Brenda (18:09.639)
So what I'm basically hearing you say is that we could go to many places in scripture and find application for our marriage. If we're talking just how to treat an image bearer, a friend or a foe. If we're talking about how brothers and sisters in the church should relate to one another. Friends, all kinds of different relationships and all the ways that God is instructing that we love one another well.
Alex Kocher (18:17.988)
Exactly.
Brenda (18:36.035)
are all the ways that we could apply the scripture to marriage. And maybe could we even argue that if marriage is this really sacred relationship, it seems like to me that we should be applying all of those principles the best and seeking to flesh them out the most within that marriage relationship.
Alex Kocher (18:55.986)
Right.
Brenda (18:57.979)
So I think that's really good because I do think we tend to do exactly what you say. We just look for the marriage, the wife, the husband, the submission, the leader, the headship, whatever, and we just move to those verses. then probably the next, apart from roles and responsibilities, I would have to guess, and just being a marriage counselor, that the next place most people move to is to proof text on sex in marriage. Right? And then we get, right?
Alex Kocher (19:19.868)
Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. We want to talk about dangerous. Let's just go to this one verse on sex.
Adam Coppock (19:24.013)
Yeah. Yeah.
Brenda (19:26.439)
Yes, and that's a topic for a whole different podcast, Adam, that we'll have you back on. Yes, yes. So the danger is that we end up having a very small view of marriage, a very small view of the greatness. I God has given us this great and good design and we forget. And then I think we have wrong expectations too. So.
Alex Kocher (19:30.068)
Yes.
Adam Coppock (19:30.231)
Yeah.
Looking forward to it.
Alex Kocher (19:34.077)
Hahaha
Brenda (19:51.141)
Can we maybe just kind of recap in each part of the story a little bit about what we mean by in those stories what's happening?
Adam Coppock (20:00.493)
Yeah, and I almost just want to piggyback on that. Again, I think we said this on another video a little while back, maybe even before one of y'all's interviews, but we sometimes go to what feels safest to us and sometimes being either dogmatic, like really hardline on something because it's what we grew up hearing or somebody that we trust more than anybody else is the one who said it, or we just don't like living in the tension.
of something that's not completely clear. It almost seems safer to go to proof text something. And we want to know we're doing it right. Like we spend most of our time just wanting to not get it wrong instead of thinking of what's really flourishing. And so one of the things that looking at marriage through the lens of the grand narratives, helps us see, again, keeping God's big story in view, but to see what is real flourishing for humanity look like, especially in the...
Brenda (20:32.827)
Hmm. Yep.
Alex Kocher (20:35.517)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (20:38.213)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Coppock (20:58.207)
in the relationship of husband and wife. So we consider a prologue, we start with a loving, wise, and sovereign God. see not just with commands to do something or prohibitions to stay away from something, you actually start with the character of the Creator to understand the creation. And that is just, I mean, again, like all of the scriptures in many ways are trying to reorient our eyes to
Brenda (21:11.623)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (21:17.285)
Amen.
Adam Coppock (21:25.153)
the glory of the character, the nature of our Creator God. And we're so prone just to look at his commands and say, I did it right or I didn't do it right. Instead of even asking a question of the things that are really specific commands, what is the heart of the lawgiver in this law or in this prohibition to not do this? Like what's actually the heart of the lawgiver in this? And so we start with a loving, sovereign, gracious God who creates and designs marriage because it's a good design.
Brenda (21:47.495)
Hmm.
Adam Coppock (21:53.388)
So in creation, we actually see to not only just the very specific realm of marriage created, but we see the distinctives of male and female, and it allows us to so nurture appreciation. Like when we're able to really hold creation in view, we're able to hold out the capacity for real appreciation and delight in the other. When we really like only focus on creation,
Brenda (22:03.495)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (22:15.239)
Hmm.
Adam Coppock (22:19.117)
It gives us, without understanding the rest of the story, we sometimes get in kind of a delusional view of marriage, that it's supposed to be like, you know, just perfect all the time. You know, if we really were to start in the fall in miscreation though, then we would actually begin to only look at the shortcomings and have what we sometimes talk about a negative sentiment. Or maybe another way to say it is we walk and stay in an ungenerous story.
Alex Kocher (22:27.124)
Mm-hmm
Brenda (22:29.179)
Hmm.
Brenda (22:35.514)
Okay.
Adam Coppock (22:48.813)
towards the other, towards our spouse, seeing them only as a sinner or as a failure, and how they're not meeting my needs or not what I was promised or whatever. And so we start with that negative sentiment. When we forget redemption and restoration, we begin to dress for her as tragedy. Like if we lose sight of redemption, that Jesus really does conquer the grave, Jesus really does resurrect, that Jesus really does conquer death and sin and free us from its dominion.
Brenda (22:48.967)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (22:54.065)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (22:58.854)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Coppock (23:18.529)
then we miss the resurrection power that actually he offers us as new creations in him. That our marriage, like the hope of our marriage is Christ, not just new tactics today. And so the reality for Christians is your best days are always ahead of you. That's what restoration really shows us. Is it nurtures hope, it grows hope when at times what we've experienced in life almost treats hope as dangerous and we just don't want to feel that pain of hoping it could be better again.
Brenda (23:31.686)
Yeah.
Adam Coppock (23:48.61)
yet holding God's story in view allows us not just cognitively in our mind, but allows our bodies to sink into the capacity for hope again. So that's one of beautiful things again is like if we cut any of these chapters out, one, the story doesn't make sense, but two, it actually prohibits us from true growth moving forward.
Brenda (24:03.303)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (24:11.046)
I think that was all really well said. Alex, do you want to add anything to that?
Alex Kocher (24:17.236)
I'm just going to summarize it the way we're going to kind lay it out for the rest of the season in that when we connect the grand narrative in marriage, today we're talking about that there's a prologue, that there's a God who exists. He's a loving and wise God. He has authority over marriage. He has a good design for marriage. That in creation we see that marriage is good, the way God made it. And Adam and Eve are good and we see them coming together. And then in the fall,
Brenda (24:24.038)
Okay.
Alex Kocher (24:47.2)
we see that marriage is hard and we need a savior if we have any hope for continuing in marriage. So in redemption we see that there's healing in marriage and in restoration we see that there's hope for our marriages but ultimately there's ultimate hope for the future and so each episode of this season will break down each one of those and go into more depth to talk about how that applies to marriage. So just kind of summarizing all that Adam said there is that
We can pull this thread of marriage through the scriptures and we can begin to see that God has a lot more to say than just these very specific commands and that there's a lot for us to learn as we focus on the big picture of what marriage is.
Brenda (25:32.486)
Great. Well, I think it's going to be such a wonderful.
season and I think it's going to really help our listeners and myself included even though I know this material just to really delve into all of these areas and continue to have this richness and this fuller view of not only my marriage but of who God is and what he's done throughout my married life. One of the things we spent about 30 minutes talking about before we got on was this idea of the prologue and Lordship and the setting and so once
thing that is true is that God did establish himself as Lord over marriage and Lord over image-bearers, all of us and all of our activity. And so, we do think it's important to go back and understand a little bit of the setting of where are we in Genesis? Like, who's writing Genesis? Who is Genesis being written to? And why is God establishing himself as a wise and loving authority and author of marriage and image-bearing, which we're going to talk
so much about. So we're going to let our pastor once again come in and summarize that for us.
Adam Coppock (26:45.281)
Well, just think it's really, I mean, it was a fun conversation to talk through of like, you know, we don't just read this as like a random document that was just dropped in a vacuum. Like it comes in a setting. And so as we think about even the creation account, and as we get to that in the next talk, we'll actually talk about how is it directly answering some of the stories of the day. And so it's important to think of
of who is the Bible given to at different parts of God's progressive unfolding of his plan of redemption. And as we think about creation and fall and those stories of Genesis and Exodus and Numbers, that these books of Moses, given through Moses to the people of Israel who are coming out of Egypt, and so they have these competing stories of the gods of Egypt, but God is setting them free, he's delivering them and taking them into the promised land in Canaan.
who's got all these other stories of other gods and these ancient Near Eastern religions and so there's all these competing stories and God is orienting them to this is who you are. This is my story and not just of like you know one or two or particular areas but it's really for all of life and so even in that realm of marriage of understanding what does it mean to live as God's people in the realm of husband and wife and
And in many ways, like that's why the Bible is so beautiful, so good for us in 2026 is that we have these competing stories and ideologies and philosophies saying this is what you're supposed to do. This is what life is about. And the Bible is like as we think about like the book of Moses and these books of Moses, Genesis, Exodus, as we think about how it's given, it's an apologetic to show the truthfulness of how we've been created.
to give the best explanation of why is the world the way it is, why do I feel the way I feel, and then what hope is there for the future and how will we be saved. And so to see all of that find its yes and amen in Jesus Christ, like the story, it's important for us to understand the setting of the story and then how that applies to, we're in very similar boat today that there's a lot of competing stories.
Adam Coppock (29:06.347)
the creation account, it doesn't come in a vacuum. God is forming his people and he forms them not just with commands of do this, he forms them with let me tell you the story, let me tell you where it all began, let me tell you who I am and what that means of who you are.
Brenda (29:13.478)
you
Brenda (29:25.402)
Hmm.
Yeah, I think sometimes we have this impression that there's like this little angel that's following Adam and Eve around and is transcribing Genesis, right? And that's how we get the book of Genesis. We don't realize like Genesis is given to Moses and it is in this context, which I think is so important for us to understand. And I love what you said about competing stories because the truth is we come into our own marriages with a lot of influences and a lot of competing stories to God's stories within our own story. And then kind of what you were saying,
Alex Kocher (29:35.911)
Yeah.
Adam Coppock (29:36.802)
Yeah.
Brenda (29:56.618)
not everything's so black and white. There's a lot of gray in how you want to participate in Christmas or, you know...
who you're going to give to in your finances or how many children you're going to have. But we can also just come with some very specific and dogmatic views of how we want our marriage to look and that creates a lot of conflict. So, you know, there can be ungodly influences that we can bring in or just differences of opinion based on our worldview and the way our parents did it and the influence that have formed and shaped us.
Alex Kocher (30:31.719)
Yeah, I was thinking when you were talking, it might be helpful for us to name some of those competing stories because I think that language is something we're real familiar with. And people may not recognize that when we're talking about a competing story, we're talking about the thing that we make meaning of marriage with. So just in the last couple of weeks, I've sat with people who marriage is to fulfill their needs. That's their story. They may not consciously be
thinking that but they're operating out of a viewpoint of marriage that you my spouse are here to have my needs met. Or another one is for a lot of women marriage is what I was made for. I was made to be a wife and we like to say and we've said really from early on in our ministry Brenda that life is one role that we as women have but it is not the role that we were created for. It's just one role and we have a design as women
that's beautiful outside of marriage. So if you're single, it's not hopeless for you. But there are lots of, we use that word story to convey that people come in with a lens or set of glasses, a framework that they're understanding marriage through. And oftentimes what we do when we sit down with people is we help them to see what that story is they're telling themselves about marriage that is not true. And so.
Adam Coppock (32:00.789)
Yeah, and most of the time, we don't understand the water we swim in. That's part of it is that we've been so just flowing down the stream of cultural narratives and stories and what's been passed on. And that's both in family, that's both in schools, that's both in our church setting. It's all over the place. And so it's just helpful sometimes for us, again, in many ways, we're coming to the Scriptures looking at it as a mirror.
Brenda (32:05.935)
Right.
Brenda (32:17.423)
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Adam Coppock (32:30.533)
and how is it exposing? Like, wait a minute, what has been shaping me? What's actually forming me differently than what God says? This is how I'm forming you. So that's really helpful, Alex.
Brenda (32:30.905)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Alex Kocher (32:39.324)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (32:39.449)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it is. Thank you for clarifying that because I also think that we can see it more as like worldview being more culture or big picture. But I like Adam that you focused in on the fact that you you can look at your family has a family culture. The education system you were in, what you were taught, how you were taught that have that was a culture. Even your church has a lot of traditions and cultures that it holds onto that you are going to bring into your marriage. If you've never been church, then you
know, you still adopted and picked up some views on what was modeled for you or what you saw on Netflix or whatever streaming service you use. of course, now there are so many other influences that are shaping marriage. We know with the prevalence of pornography, especially that is really having such a damaging effect on God's good design for marriage and just other influences. I think of, you know, the a lot of what I call condolting people just not
wanting to settle down or take responsibility or, you know, just kind of like the perpetual, let's just keep playing as long as we can. There's just, there's, there are a lot of things in our culture that are just, you know, working against this, this idea of marriage. And so is marriage worth it?
Adam Coppock (33:46.165)
Yeah. Yeah.
Alex Kocher (33:49.171)
Good dalting.
Adam Coppock (33:55.276)
I mean that's a huge one right now, is marriage even worth it? mean, like that's a huge one, even in Christian communities at times right now, is marriage even worth it? And so that's why it's so like, what is God's story of this?
Alex Kocher (33:59.035)
Yes.
Brenda (34:04.227)
Yeah. Yes. Yes.
Alex Kocher (34:04.817)
Mmm.
Alex Kocher (34:10.582)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (34:10.692)
Yeah, so good. Well, Alex, one of the things we talked about that we want to provide after or alongside each of these episodes is a tool. So I believe that you have a tool that you are going to do another recording. All the tools will be recorded separately, but I'd love for you just to give a little idea if you already know what you're doing, if you haven't.
Alex Kocher (34:28.263)
Mm.
Yeah, Adam, I don't think you and I have talked about this, but I think what we'll do for the prologue is we'll use Pete Scazzaro's material about family genogram and family culture. And there's just some diagnostic questions. There's a way to map your family tree for two or three generations, and then some diagnostic questions about what your family culture is to help you to narrow down and to be able to see
the water you swim in that is hard to identify and to be able to just talk about what was your family's view of money? What was your family's view of men and of women and of free time and of holidays? And those are all questions that end up influencing how we come into marriage. And so we'll explain that in a video and pass along Pete Scazzara's information on building a family genogram and then asking some good culture questions to identify what your culture
cultural influences are.
Brenda (35:32.377)
That's great. That sounds a little complicated, but I bet you'll break it down for us. Give us the Reader's Digest or the the Geniegram for Dummies or something like that, okay? But I'll give it a try. And I love the culture questions for sure. Sound like they would be something that everybody can dive into. It is actually a really worthwhile pursuit as much as you can to look back a generation or two. I know that we are often disconnected from a lot of our ancestors these days and we don't often know, but I know in our counseling that
Alex Kocher (35:37.81)
Mm-mm.
Alex Kocher (35:43.197)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (36:02.311)
prologue when we can say, your parents were this way, but what set them up to be this way? You know, and it also really gives you a lot of compassion. I think it allows us to be more gracious with one another when we realize a lot of times that we inherited, if you will, a certain view of marriage and a certain view of life and how that can be so damaging without the redemption piece of the story. So, well, listen, guys, I think this has been a great first discussion and I'm
Alex Kocher (36:07.09)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (36:21.531)
Yes.
Alex Kocher (36:25.991)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brenda (36:32.271)
super excited. The next episode is going to be on creation that marriage is good. And to your point, Adam, this is a message that our this generation needs to hear. Our children need to hear it. This younger generation needs to hear it. They need to have some modeling of some marriages that are experiencing the goodness of God through marriage to see that it is that it is worthwhile. And yeah, so I'm excited and we'll be back soon. So thank you all.
Alex Kocher (36:43.335)
you
Adam Coppock (37:01.229)
Thanks