Season 13 Ep.5 / Living for Heaven when Marriage is Hard
Brenda Payne (00:02.12)
Yes, let's talk restoration today, guys. You want to? Hey Alex, hey Adam, glad to be back because we are in fact going to talk about restoration in the context of marriage today in our season 13 Good Together, God's Redemptive Story in Marriage, and I've already been so blessed by the content that you guys wrote and did for your church, and then were willing to come and share with our listeners as well. So thank you so much.
Alex Kocher (00:04.572)
Yes.
Brenda Payne (00:29.46)
In the idea of restoration, it's just one part of the bigger story of God's grand story, we call it the grand narrative in the scriptures. It's the end of the story, but the end of the story is actually the rest of the story. Our stories don't end with restoration, and it's actually the part of the story that tells us the best is yet to come. And so when I think about restoration, I think about how all of our brokenness will be healed.
and lost things will be redeemed. I've heard it said, like, everything sad will come untrue, which I just, I love that expression. I had a pastor friend of mine who would always say, don't forget, the story ends well. So if it's not all well...
It's not the end of the story. And that was just been such a great reminder for me because we do live in, we've been talking about this idea of the now and not yet, that we get little taste of glory, but we're not quite there. We also get little taste of hell. So we're in this in-between as we wait for our final restoration. And we wait for either to be with Jesus or for...
Jesus to return. And I love Dan Allander's quote because I think it's just really helpful here. He just says, is the closest to heaven and the closest to hell he's ever experienced. And I think that is, I think that's just really, really true. You know, if you're in a marriage any amount of time, it can feel so life-giving and it can also feel like death or torture or misery, depending on, you know, where you are in your marriage experience.
I love that God does allow us to experience bits of heaven though, even in the worst parts on earth. And I have a really, I think, good example of this in my own life. I am watching a couple in their mid-80s who have been married for almost 65 years, and the wife has dementia and is getting progressively worse, and the husband has really just become a full-time caregiver. But it's just so precious because every morning he goes to wake her up, and he literally cannot wait to wake her up, even though
Brenda Payne (02:34.839)
The camaraderie, the friendship, the belonging and all is really not there in the same sense. Like she's not able to connect in the way she was relationally. Again, this is mostly caregiving. But he goes in and he wakes her up so tenderly and the minute she opens her eyes, he says, good morning, honey. I'm so glad to see you again. He helps her out of bed. He literally wraps his arms around her for one minute and he times it. He gives her a one minute hug and won't let her go.
and then looks her in the eyes and says, I love you so very much. Now this couple would be my mom and dad. And even though my mom cannot remember what she's had for breakfast five minutes after she's eaten, she responds with so much love and joy and delight every time, every single morning she wakes up. And I have to say, even in the state that she's in, I've never seen my mother
give my dad so much warmth and so many accolades and so adore him and admire him as she is in this season. And I just have to say it's one of the greatest privileges I've had to see in my almost 60 years of life to see my parents walk out almost 65 years of marriage. And because I've witnessed it, my dad started off as an atheist, then he moved to an agnostic, and then he became a Christian. And in the last 10 years,
I've seen his walk with Jesus, like probably in his seventies really begin to grow. And in his eighties, I've seen an intimacy with Jesus that I've never seen before. So it has just been, again, in such a hard, hard, hard situation. It has been such a taste of my sister and I are watching going like, wow, this is the marriage we want. This is what we hope our marriage will look like at year 65. So sweet, so precious, so tender, so full of mercy and grace. It's just.
It is really something beautiful to behold.
Brenda Payne (04:34.283)
Yeah, that brings a tear to my eye. Gosh, I feel like I'm so weepy in this season. What's going on with me? I'm leaking a lot. Well, the question we've been asking a question for each of us to answer as we go through this series relating to each part of the story we're in. And so being we're in restoration, here is my question for us today. How does the future hope of heaven and restoration help you endure the present struggles of marriage?
Alex Kocher (04:35.994)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (05:02.429)
And or, are you most excited to see healed, restored, or completed in your marriage one day? And I'll let whoever has a good answer jump off first.
Adam Coppock (05:13.186)
Yeah, I'll go ahead. Yeah, I think what's helpful to really consider with restoration is that idea that like, whatever's most hard, whatever's most painful, this is the worst it gets. And, you know, that doesn't mean there's not still more bad things that can happen this side of heaven, but really like, that there is this future fullness of marriage that extends beyond like, Stefana. Like, the real hope of heaven too is like,
I will love so perfectly. It isn't just that Steph and I will be most good in heaven, but like there is just this no presence of any more suffering, no more anticipation of what could go wrong, not just in our marriage, but in the world and those things pressing on how we relate to each other. So I think for me, it's a little bit of that anticipation of that removal of anxiety and worry of what would tomorrow hold.
Brenda Payne (05:59.469)
Heh.
Brenda Payne (06:08.984)
Mmm, that's good. What about you Alex?
Alex Kocher (06:11.43)
Yeah.
Yeah, it's funny. was going to say something similar, but I'm going to add something to it. think this this stage of life has caught me by surprise in two ways. The first one being in the hard way that you know, I think I really did believe that the years of having toddlers being home being in pain in my situation were just the hardest years and to find that have adult children now and a grandchild on the way and to realize that
that my anxiety and the intricacies and complexities of those relationships are, that, you know, it just hasn't gone away. If anything, my worry and anxiety increases and that surprised me. I thought I was going to master that thing by now. And so the idea of the new heavens and the new earth being a time where there's no sorrow, but also no worry.
Brenda Payne (06:59.46)
Hehehehehe
Alex Kocher (07:09.072)
is just very appealing. But the other thing I'll say is the surprising part of this stage of life, Mason and I are empty nesters right now. And there has been such a sweetness in our relationship over the last few years where we've been able to kind of come back to each other. I don't feel like we ever left each other during the child raising years, but to be able to focus on each other again in a different way. And we're just having fun.
Brenda Payne (07:35.031)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (07:38.959)
and enjoying quiet.
where he's not out the door at 6 a.m. like he used to be. We're enjoying sitting outside in the evenings together and recapping our day. Just the connection has actually just been a taste to me of heaven and the fellowship that we'll all have together in the new heavens and the new earth. So it's definitely been hard that I look forward to being restored but there's also been a sweetness and a beauty in the season that makes me long for heaven because it's just a taste of what's to come.
Brenda Payne (08:11.095)
That's beautiful. Well, I've said before and I'll say again that some of the days, and I don't do this as much as I used to, my hope for heaven has just been Jesus' promise that there won't be marriage in heaven, right? It's just we won't be married, we won't be given in marriage, and kind of holding on to those words, which by the way, he says it twice in different gospels, so there's times I've really held on to those words. But at this point in my marriage, I honestly don't want it to end.
Alex Kocher (08:23.61)
Mm-hmm
Alex Kocher (08:32.111)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (08:40.119)
Paul turned 65 on April Fool's Day and I told him no more birthdays. That was it, 65. He couldn't get any older. I turned 60 in July. I'm not getting older. This is it. We're stopping the clock right now. And so think part of my, almost my struggle, you you can have such a sweetness here on earth sometimes that you forget like heaven is going to be so much better. And so I think I just have to remind myself that it's not that I'm going to lose anything.
going to gain something so much greater, and I do think about Paul experiencing me, Brenda, in the fullness of all my glory, and even though I won't be his wife, I fully expect him to break out in the poetry that Adam did when he saw Eve. This is who you were supposed to be! This is what I was missing out on! It's like, yeah, baby! So, any rate, there's going to be so much
Alex Kocher (09:19.696)
Yes!
Brenda Payne (09:36.118)
just so many reasons to look forward to heaven. And I just think about Paul saying these light and momentary troubles are achieving for us this far, this eternal glory that far outweighs them all. So I think wherever we are in our marriage, just to remember that the troubles are hard, marriage is hard, but the coming glory is better. And God is using this. I could not and would not be the person I am today apart from my husband's refining work, the way God has used him to refine me.
One, just with my own sinful bends, but even how Paul's Christ-likeness has impacted me, but also how his sin has impacted me. Like it's all. It's that Romans 8, 28, and 29, like God has used everything in my marriage, the outside pressures, the internal pressures in me, his struggles, all of it. God has just been using to draw me into a more intimate relationship with Jesus, to do the same for Paul, to transform us, and to bring us to this place that 35 years later we're saying like, wow, we're just like,
Alex Kocher (10:12.155)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (10:33.483)
We don't even really want to die now. We just want to stay right here and enjoy this. And to your point, Adam, it's not going to stay this way. Like troubles, more troubles will come and heartache and aging will bring pain and all the things and loss and things that are coming. So.
we will be reoriented to heaven. I might even be after I get off this call, Paul says something to me that upsets me and I'm back to, I'm glad there's not gonna be marriage in heaven. So as fickle as my heart is, I know I can go in and out of that pretty quickly. But at this moment, especially being I kind of threw him under the bus the last episode, I felt like I just really need to say, so sweet today in this moment. okay.
Alex Kocher (10:52.774)
True.
Brenda Payne (11:12.395)
Making this about me, I need to stop. Let's get moving people. Let's talk about restoration and what it means in these areas of agency. I'm sorry of image bearing. We've talked about four areas of image bearing that we have been walking through, which has been agency, purpose, belonging, rest and beauty. And how each part of the story.
or how these characteristics are impacted in each part of the story, depending on where we are in the story. So Adam, let's start with restoration and maybe just tell us a little bit about, yeah, just what restoration means to us in marriage and the big picture.
Adam Coppock (11:52.067)
Yeah, think y'all said it in different ways. You may even said this direct line, but just the simple truth is it means for the Christian, your best days are always ahead of you. And that's really hard, especially in seasons like either maybe a really good honeymoon phase or a really good, you know, second quarter stretch or maybe, you know, finishing out the game, you know, wherever you are. There are times for us to think, I don't want heaven.
Brenda Payne (12:10.423)
Yeah.
Adam Coppock (12:20.514)
to change for me today. Like we begin to treat this place as heaven and really restoration helps us see we're being oriented towards a future story that actually has impact today. And one way I like to think about it is we think of echoes as something from the past but the way the scriptures give us the image of heaven and the new heavens new earth is future echoes that impact today.
We're hearing and seeing things and that's what each of you are communicating of the beauty I experienced today like this new creation that I'm living with actually living in light of that redemption and restoration in Christ in a way that I'm seeing such sweetness and such beauty that actually opens my heart's capacity for hope of the future where sins attack has often been to kill hope and to kill desire. So restoration is the place that we most nurture hope.
Brenda Payne (13:10.742)
Hmm.
Adam Coppock (13:14.988)
almost like growing it like in the the sea in the soil of redemption. And so our hope in marriage is not in having found our soulmate or in our ability to solve conflict with each other it's firmly rooted in the final restoration purchased for us by Christ. That also means a good marriage gives us a taste of the intimacy and fellowship we have with the Lord in the new heavens new earth. And this is what's really hard for us. You said it a moment ago that Jesus says twice there's no marriage.
and heaven and sometimes people really get pissed about that. Like what do I do with that? And specifically it's like wait a minute I thought that's where like sex was going to be the best. Like is the future heavens and if we were to really think about it like that even the image of sex that is this intimacy and this oneness is but a shadow of a fuller oneness we experience not just with our spouse but actually all of humanity and with the Lord.
Brenda Payne (13:47.479)
Hahaha
Alex Kocher (13:53.775)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (13:54.059)
Mmm.
Adam Coppock (14:12.002)
that if sex is a sacrament of the covenant of marriage just as like the Lord's Supper is a sacrament that we take regularly that gives us a picture of being around the table of the new heavens new earth sex in a way is showing us the intimacy and the pleasure of the new heavens new earth. And so there is this glory for us to remember marriage is but a shadow and that's not to take away the beauty of your spouse and the uniqueness that you experience it actually is to get you more excited about.
I will so perfectly love in heaven. And that also means why this place matters. marriage, when it's deeply discouraging, it helps us as we hold the whole story in view that God is restoring all things. And as think as Scottie Smith says, he's not making all new things, he is making all things new. Which means like, he is renewing my marriage.
Alex Kocher (15:03.853)
Hmm.
Adam Coppock (15:06.522)
He is actually crafting and restoring it and one day it will be fully restored and again our communal experience. so how we live today actually matters. The future echoes into the present moment actually matter and it gives great hope. Yeah, and it just keeps driving us to heaven will be better. All relationships will be better. I get really excited to see movie trailers come out. I geek out like when Dune Three or something comes out.
our marriage in some ways is a trailer but a fuller movie. And it's hard for us to really get behind that because we want the immediate gratification and we want to make good things ultimate things. But really there is a greater story that's constantly being held in front of us as we look at God's grand narrative.
Brenda Payne (15:34.591)
You
Brenda Payne (15:55.232)
Yeah, that's so good. I love that you also just connected the end of the story with hope and that hope to endurance because we know that's really so much of a heart of how we're going to endure is to have a greater hope and a greater vision. So, well, Alex, let's begin taking this idea of restoration and weaving it through our image bearing and what it actually means in our marriages, in our image bearing. So we're going to start where we have been starting every episode and that is with the
idea of agency. What does restoration mean in light of our agency? Or what does agency mean in light of our restoration? Might be a better way to phrase that.
Brenda Payne (16:38.967)
Adam Coppock (16:43.086)
It's so embarrassing.
Alex Kocher (16:43.557)
Sorry, I cleared my throat and then I forgot to take it off. Okay.
Brenda Payne (16:44.727)
You can just start with all of, you can just start with the answer.
Alex Kocher (16:51.419)
I just want to piggyback off what Adam said or just reiterate Scotty Smith's quote that God's not making new things, He's making all things new. So the theme that we're going to hear through each one of these is not that there's something new happening, but we're actually going to in a lot of ways say a lot of what we said in creation again, because like here we are with agency where God's made us with the ability to make choices, have our own free will, and they were twisted in the fall, but in the final restoration, all our choices are going to align.
with God's again. And that means that today we can try things and fail in marriage knowing that God's purposes are ultimately going to be accomplished and we're ultimately going to be on the same page that He is. And it also means that if we have to make a choice to end the marriage covenant that our marriage to Jesus is never in jeopardy. Like we are wed to Him, that is secure. And so if we have to make hard choices here on
earth that that relationship doesn't change or move that is something we can bank on we can count on.
and that until we come into his presence, we can continue to choose sacrifice, we can continue to choose vulnerability, but we can also set boundaries as we call one another in relationship to live as those who want to walk worthy of Jesus. And as we said in our boundary season, we can call one another into how God says we treat image bearers and know that one day we will treat each other that way. We will be in perfect relationship with one another.
Brenda Payne (18:30.763)
Well said. Well Adam, let's move on to purpose then. How does restoration impact our view or idea or experience of purpose?
Adam Coppock (18:40.182)
Yeah, I mean in the kind of summary of it, in the new heavens and new earth, our purposes are once again aligned with God, you know, instead of, again, fighting for trust of self or to do something according to another story is like our purposes perfectly aligned with the purpose of God. What that means living in the now and not yet or the already but not yet is that we can dream.
together. I always love the phrase of holy dreaming. We've talked about that idea of shared meaning and shared purpose, but there is this prophetic imagination that God invites us into with the image of restoration where we know the end of the story. What would that mean for us if we really embrace the fullness of the end of the story, the sure ending? What freedom that even gives us to really engage the purpose God's called us to individually and then communally as a couple.
unit for what God alone could do in and through our marriage. And that's one of the hardest places where the fall has made it dangerous to dream again. so restoration really opens us up to that. It's like if we know the end of the story, what are the chances we could take to really step into that purpose? It means we can fight for shared meaning and purpose. We can do things that thrill our souls together, that really give life. can...
Brenda Payne (19:44.823)
Hmm.
Adam Coppock (19:59.883)
gain skill and good communication but to seek to be on the same page with one another. It really allows us to re-engage those places that the fall has made feel dangerous. It gives us a capacity to imagine how God could bring new life into this place.
Brenda Payne (20:15.287)
I really love the way you bring.
imagination, holy dreams, that kind of language into that. think that's really, really helpful. And I think that's even tied to hope. When we quit dreaming, when we quit seeing what God sees, we grow discouraged. When our marriage just gets kind of shrunk down to the struggles we're having and losing really agency and purpose and belonging and all of these things, we just lose so much hope. Alex, what about belonging? I think in the last podcast, just talking about belonging had me tearing up. So I'll try to keep it together.
Alex Kocher (20:29.185)
huh.
Brenda Payne (20:47.961)
this podcast, but it is such a tender place. mean, belonging is, I just feel like one of those places, I you look around, everybody wants to know that they're loved and they're wanted and that they belong and it's really hard to find in us in full world in relationships.
Alex Kocher (20:48.506)
You
Alex Kocher (21:06.476)
It does.
And so I think what we look forward to in the new heavens and new earth is that we will gather as believers will be safe, will be diverse, and will be united in worship to the Father. And I think what that means now is that we can risk failing one another. We can make repair when we do hurt one another because we ultimately know that all things will be restored in relationships and that we can
create communities here even in our marriage and with others where we aid in the healing of each other, we remind each other who we are and how loved we are, who we are and whose we are I guess. And so I think...
Yeah, one of the things we all talked about even as we talked about the taste of heaven now is the feeling of being seen and loved and I think we'll know that in its fullness in the new heavens and new earth.
Brenda Payne (22:09.751)
All right, Adam, what about rest in beauty? It's our final category of our final podcast.
Adam Coppock (22:19.392)
Yeah, I guess that means I'm never invited back on. So it's just totally fine. Now, I really love the way Alex ended that phrase because there is just this beauty of being in this rich community and safety and healing that really, yeah, it's just hard for us, you know, in a fractured world, it's really hard for us to imagine and how
the fracturing in the world around us and news events and you know we see it you know politically and business and even in our own families so many fractures it just it creates this this steady experience of panic and so the beauty of of the new heavens and earth is our striving finally will cease. You see the invitation of redemption is that you're safe in Christ and yet we still
struggle to perform, to pretend, to do all these things to try to still find what we measure up and we're constantly wooed back to the gospel in a sense of like reminding us that like you don't have to do it like I did it. Well restoration is that image of like all of our striving is finally done. Like the panic of will I be enough is finally over with. He wipes away every tear, all of the memories I can't forget or I wish we never had like are all perfectly
like handled, where it's not owning us in the moment. We're able to really embrace the eternal pleasure of the God we were made for in the community he has created us in. And so that means that in the meantime, like that future reality means that in the moment, then I can actually be really honest about the places my marriage does always feel fulfilling, because one day there is a trajectory of where it's supposed to be most fulfilled.
in this eternal experience, in the pleasure and the presence of the Father, in the delight of the Son, and the joy of the Holy Spirit, like that triune language together. And so it helps us see the restoration of all relationships as Shalom is where we're headed. And so until then, we pursue healing for the long haul, choosing to get back in the arena to once again, if Jesus is making all things new,
Adam Coppock (24:40.344)
then he's not done with us. So wherever we are in our marriage, we step back into the arena, we take chances, bruised and battered by the fall, yet healed and put together by Christ and his grace, and he will get us home safely.
Brenda Payne (24:57.141)
Alex, you want to add anything to just any thoughts on restoration before we wrap this episode up or either one of you.
Alex Kocher (25:04.118)
I can't think of any.
Brenda Payne (25:07.083)
I just hope, hope is just screaming. know, like the thing I just every time, with every category, I'm just like, that's so hopeful. that's so hopeful. that's so hopeful. I feel hope rising in my own heart.
Adam Coppock (25:07.298)
Yeah. Yeah.
Adam Coppock (25:14.574)
Yeah, yeah. I think our culture just talks about hope like wishful thinking and almost delusional. And so when we start thinking that our marriage could be better when it's in an extreme situation of hurt or harm, when we start having hope, we even begin to speak the language of the evil one and say, how dare you even think something better could happen?
Brenda Payne (25:24.928)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Adam Coppock (25:43.811)
How dare you think something good could come from this? But to really hold restoration in view, like I just day in, day out, ask the question, if I really leaned into the surety of my acceptance in Christ now, but the surety of future glory, what chance is what I really take today? But the reality is I still struggle with the alternative narratives of our culture. And so again, like to really lean into hope,
doesn't mean we don't do anything, we just make it until we get to heaven. No, it actually means we should anticipate that Jesus is doing amazing things and should anticipate healing and hope. And that doesn't mean everything's fixed in a moment, it's not, you know, microwave marriages, like it's not just, you know, nuke it for a minute and it's done, like whatever analogy you wanna use there, but like it doesn't mean quick, but it means good.
Brenda Payne (26:16.471)
you
Adam Coppock (26:42.698)
And so it continues to nourish hope. And hope is something to be nourished and to be grown and to be tended to. And we live in a world and against an adversary, the evil one, who seeks to still kill and destroy not just joy, but even the capacity for hope and to really gaze upon the future heavenly realities.
Brenda Payne (26:51.393)
Hmm.
Adam Coppock (27:08.864)
actually nourishes that. And that's one of the reasons we assemble as believers in church is to fix our gaze upon the heavenly realities. We're actually engaging every time. Alex probably hears me say this at Nausium at times, but like the call to worship even is an invitation not just to come do stuff in a space today, but we actually are invited into the heavenly worship that's been happening for eternity past and is going forward in eternity future. We're actually invited into the heavenly experience.
And it's to lift our gaze to the beauty of God and His work in a way that our daily experience would seek to destroy our capacity to see that. So that as we leave the worship service, we're sent back out as people of hope. And it's just hard, but there's just such beauty as we fix our eyes upon that restoration part of the story.
Brenda Payne (27:49.815)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (27:53.367)
Hmm. Hmm.
Brenda Payne (28:00.247)
Well, thank you. That'll preach right there. That was really good.
Alex Kocher (28:01.625)
Yeah, and I think I love, yeah, I was gonna say that poetic even. think...
When I hear Adam talk, what I'm struck with is just how countercultural these ideas are. That our culture has really sold all of us. I even find myself falling prey to it. And if you're one of my counseling people, you've heard me get on the soapbox many times. But I mean, we've bought Disney's lie that like there's a soulmate out there and that this romantic relationship is the pinnacle. And so it's counterculture.
cultural to to to recognize that our hope is not in this relationship or making this relationship something or finding fulfillment in this marriage relationship this romantic relationship but to recognize that our hope lies in the future that we will experience in relationship with Christ and with each other and I I know that means that we have to hold intention this idea that we're gonna have to work hard
Brenda Payne (29:08.587)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (29:11.355)
in our marriages and that marriage itself can be a beautiful picture to the culture of who Christ is and of the gospel as we've said and yet to not put our hope in that same marriage that we're that we're working hard to to maintain and so to kind of keep lifting our eyes and lifting our eyes to something beyond this relationship that there will be fulfillment and joy and peace and this shalom in heaven with each other and with Jesus.
Adam Coppock (29:40.943)
One thing that made me think of Alex as you said that is heaven is never threatened by the hurt I'm experiencing right now. Like heaven is never threatened because my marriage is not where I sense it ought to be. And that's just a great comfort because we're wondering where does the story go? Like we need vision, we need like something of like where is all of this going and God continues to like hold this in front of us and that's yeah, it's just beautiful.
Alex Kocher (29:48.439)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (30:10.154)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (30:10.423)
Well, I want to thank you both because I think for me and for our listeners as well, you've given us a view, a bigger picture of marriage in just so many ways. don't...
I don't know that I've ever heard marriage really taught this way. In fact, I can't say that I have. Probably has, somewhere out there. Somebody can send that to me if it has. I really appreciate the framing of this conversation around marriage the way you guys have used the grand narrative and used our image bearing. I think it's refreshing. I think it's encouraging. I think it's challenging. I think it's hopeful. I think it's, you know, I just, think it is a wonderful framework that I hope our listeners
can really hold on to for their own marriages and their own personal sanctification and as they persevere in their marriage relationships. So thank you both again. I think this has been a wonderful series. I do want to remind our listeners that Alex is putting together tools for each of the parts of the story to help with just some practical ways to interact in your marriage. And so did we decide there was a tool for this one Alex or what did you decide on?
Alex Kocher (31:21.591)
Yeah, I haven't created this yet, but I'm going to use some of the Gottman material of creating shared meaning and purpose and talk about what that means for a marriage. I mean, again, they're they're hitting on the same truth that we've talked about that God has given marriages meaning and purpose. And so how do we discover that together?
Brenda Payne (31:42.737)
Great, well we will look forward to that. Well listen, thanks for a great season. Adam, thank you so much for joining us and yes, we will be inviting you back.
Adam Coppock (31:51.073)
No, you said it. believe me. Talk about not being able to unhear something. I heard it. Like, I get it. I get it.
Brenda Payne (31:58.488)
No, you're definitely, you're our pastor for life now, so you're stuck with us, but thank you so much. You just bring so much to the conversation and I really, I know I prayed this at the beginning of our series or before we were recording, but I really do think we're in an age where people need to hear and know that there are pastors out there who are known by other people and are living what they preach and who are gentle and kind, but don't...
back up from the truth and we know that you're a pastor, you're a husband, you're a father, you're a counselor, you're a coach, you you wear a lot of different hats and now you're a podcaster and so just add that to your titles.
Alex Kocher (32:37.429)
No.
Adam Coppock (32:39.31)
Failing towards glory, that's my only goal is failing towards glory.
Brenda Payne (32:45.015)
But we do really appreciate you. And Alex, thank you. I know that these concepts are just, you know, we can just go back to the grand narrative. And even before that, I think wrestling with this idea of grand narrative and now just seeing more and more how this teaching is pushing down.
into like the applications and implications for different areas of our life and you have just thought deeply about these things and I have to say that I think that you've really led on these things. think Adam and I probably would say we've been contributors and helping maybe sharpen some ideas and arrange some things but you you've really done a lot of work and God has given you I feel like just a lot of wisdom and a lot of insight in this so thank you for using your gifts and your abilities heeding to the Spirit and then using that to edify the rest
of us. So that's all right girl. It's a good drum to beat. If it's story of Jesus, it's the best story to beat. So anyway, well listen, I love you guys. It was great doing this series with you and I just look forward to when we can get back together.
Alex Kocher (33:31.491)
I just got one drum and I just keep beating that same little drum.